Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 4

For someone who always adds"I'm not against E-collars you sure seem to start an awful lot of neg. E-collar threads.

And as for the "take the collar off and the dog won't listen." That's crap.

Hans instead of continuing with your you 100th "I don't hate e-collars BUUUUTTTT..... Why not just admit you don't like them and don't properly know how to use one (as most of us have Figured out) and be done with it once and for all?

Lastly I'd like to see video of your dog trained to precision by you. If you can't show that your argument doesn't amount too much.

I have to agree with Christopher, OGBS, Hired dog, Ramsgsd, VKGSD's, Koach and others.  Some excellent responses by several people.  Bart Bellon is an excellent example.  I really enjoyed his seminar a few months ago; very worth while I'd highly recommend him.  

I would love to see BB some day.  I gather he's not using an e-collar to clean up or proof anything but it's more like a training "system" for lack of a better work (foundation to finish).  I don't really care what the tool but it's neat to see it used in that way, not as something someone "resorts to" because X, Y, and Z before didn't seem to work.

VKGSDs,
Bart is more than E collars and has an excellent system for training dogs.  You would really enjoy his seminar.

To touch on one point that has been raised previously; an Ecollar should never be used as a last resort, that is the worst way possible to use it.  I spend a week or two with my dog wearing the collar before it is ever turned on.  I spend the next two weeks pairing low level stim to a pop on a prong collar.  It is critical that the dog understands where the correction comes from and that it comes from the handler.  Those that don't get this concept need to learn how to use the collar properly or shouldn't use an E collar.  It takes a well thought out plan or system to implement the proper use of an E collar.  

Hans i know that dog will take a while before his training is done. I want to see YOUR DOG. I would like to see the results you are getting without the e-collar.

RE:Left or Right Leg- There is a third option.Most of the trainers that I know, that are competeing at high levels, don't care about legs because the dog is looking at them somewhere between the hip and armpit. When the dog is finding his heel position with the leg that means the dog is constantly changing his speed slightly to stay with the left leg.

about 8 yrs ago or so, there was quite a lenghthy discussion on the euro board about neck injuries and neuro problems from the
use/misuse of prong & e-collars.  ofcourse, the advocates pooh-poohed every question that was raised, but there were a number
of us who just wanted to discuss the possibility openly and at the end, we agreed that there was  cause for concern.  there is a
pretty fair margin for possible neuro damage.  i'm not trying to modify anyone's training methods, but think carefully on the effects
of electricity on nerve endings and let your good judgement be the guide to how much or little you use electricity in your training.
pjp

sounds like the OP dosent agree with them, and knows (like) we all do that dogs where trained well b4 they where invented.........HOWEVER based on  the OP's logic we should all still ride horses to work. dont car's polute the ozone.......yes they do, but they make our lifes much more efficient also. i think the e-collar is great. it gives some ppl the tools to get the job done, SOME PPL ARE NOVICE, SOME PPL DONT HAVE AS MUCH TIME AS IT TAKES SOME DOGS TO BECOME RELIABLE..........if the ecollar works and keeps that dog in a home and out of a shelter because it will now listen when far away (unless improperly used as a SHOCK punish device) THEN IM WITH IT!!!

how can you be a GOOD Trainer without knowing on some level how to use ALL training tools. u may run across a dog that NEEDS an ecollar why not know how to properly use one......im thinking about etting one, just to learn how to use it correctly, dont neccesarily think my babies need it, though we havent started working on off leash outside of the house yet

Here in UK we see some pretty good precision training in competition obedience and Heelwork to music without the use of electric, prong collars or even check chains, but I guess that kind of obedience isn't really hard enough for this thread.  This guy seems to be doing ok without electric though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5DIUvyOGJ8.

Margaret N-J

To answer the question of OP,no but all depends on the dog and what works BEST for it. As in everything else in dog training I don't like absolutes. The premise to say that to get to high level ob,an ecollar is necessary is not really what we should look at, and neither should the dismissal of a proper tool. As in the proper use of all training aids it is the proper application and timing that is vital. The use of a prong with the ''yank and crank'' methode is an example of misuse of a good tool.
If we start a discussion on training with a closed mind to different concepts it will be hard for us to add new traing tools in our ''trainer toolbox''.
I like to ask myself,what is the minimum compulsion I need to use on a dog to obtain the results.If I use a certain aid, I then ask myself,could I have obtained the same result using less compulsion and maintaining a high enthousiasm from the dog.
Before using ANY training aid the trainer should be knowledgeable in it's use.
But this is just my opinion
Mike