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by OGBS on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
Hans,
What is it that I must be kidding about?
What is it that I must be kidding about?
by Slamdunc on 12 February 2013 - 21:02
This is a great thread. When I get this bite suit off and finishing working dogs I will absolutely comment. I'm sweating too much right now waiting for the next dog to finish the track, climb through a window and find me inside this building.
by Prager on 12 February 2013 - 21:02
ramgsd I would made blanket statement ( as you say) because the way the e collar is considered and presented these days as a panacea of training - and it is not. If you would actually read what I am saying or consider what I am saying you would see that I have said that I am not against training with e collar if done properly.
To others:
Also if you really care when I say that that e collar strains relationship between the dog and the handler I will explain what I mean by pointing out that if the approach of training does not use e collar then dog knows the correction are from the trainer and not from device on dogs neck. Yes there are ways to convince the dog that the corrections are coming from the person and pushing the button. But they are basically just theories. In practice it is the collar for the dog which is giving him correction.
The prove is that if you remove the collar in not so long future the dog will not listen. And no if I do not have e collar I do not necessarily need choker or pinch. I also have hands and eyes and body language. and so on. These are directly related to me. Where if you take the e collar EVER off then the dog will learn ( and get firmly conditioned to) that the correction is not coming if the collar is not on. That is why LE agencies who certify dogs with E collars must have e collars on the dog when the dog is on duty because they know that without the collar the dog may not listen.
Thus this is straining the relationship between the dog and the handler and the relationship is less clear when e collar is on and off or if the dog does not see correction coming form the trainer directly with all his senses.( Sight, smell, touch, hearing and sight) Where if I use other means of training based on direct relationship between my praising and rewarding and correcting the dog then such relationship is more natural to the dog because it correlates directly through all his senses to the trainer same way as during natural interaction of dogs in the pack or family of dogs.
However again I am not against training with e collar if done properly and humanely. However I do not use e collar even so I am familiar with the proper use of it and I have used it in past.
Prager Hans
To others:
Also if you really care when I say that that e collar strains relationship between the dog and the handler I will explain what I mean by pointing out that if the approach of training does not use e collar then dog knows the correction are from the trainer and not from device on dogs neck. Yes there are ways to convince the dog that the corrections are coming from the person and pushing the button. But they are basically just theories. In practice it is the collar for the dog which is giving him correction.
The prove is that if you remove the collar in not so long future the dog will not listen. And no if I do not have e collar I do not necessarily need choker or pinch. I also have hands and eyes and body language. and so on. These are directly related to me. Where if you take the e collar EVER off then the dog will learn ( and get firmly conditioned to) that the correction is not coming if the collar is not on. That is why LE agencies who certify dogs with E collars must have e collars on the dog when the dog is on duty because they know that without the collar the dog may not listen.
Thus this is straining the relationship between the dog and the handler and the relationship is less clear when e collar is on and off or if the dog does not see correction coming form the trainer directly with all his senses.( Sight, smell, touch, hearing and sight) Where if I use other means of training based on direct relationship between my praising and rewarding and correcting the dog then such relationship is more natural to the dog because it correlates directly through all his senses to the trainer same way as during natural interaction of dogs in the pack or family of dogs.
However again I am not against training with e collar if done properly and humanely. However I do not use e collar even so I am familiar with the proper use of it and I have used it in past.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 12 February 2013 - 21:02
OGBS Mainly I was saying that you must be kidding is because I was trying to make point that there are other ways to achieve perfection with a dog then e collar and you start with what foot to start heel.
As far as that goes,
you can start with what ever leg you want as long as you are consistent. I, like you, am using left leg. But most trainers in Europe for some odd reason are using right leg. This guy learned under Ivan Balabanov and Balabanov ( probably being from Europe) uses right leg. I personally use Right leg for stay. I have learned to use r and l leg the way I use it long time ago from Koehler system and still use l leg to start heel and find it useful for me. But in reality to the dog it does not matter as long as you are consistent. Reason to use of R leg was explained to me by claiming that the dog will not lag behind when he is trained and positively conditioned to watch the r leg. Same I can go into details which would be applicable to turns which you are critiquing.
Prager Hans
As far as that goes,
you can start with what ever leg you want as long as you are consistent. I, like you, am using left leg. But most trainers in Europe for some odd reason are using right leg. This guy learned under Ivan Balabanov and Balabanov ( probably being from Europe) uses right leg. I personally use Right leg for stay. I have learned to use r and l leg the way I use it long time ago from Koehler system and still use l leg to start heel and find it useful for me. But in reality to the dog it does not matter as long as you are consistent. Reason to use of R leg was explained to me by claiming that the dog will not lag behind when he is trained and positively conditioned to watch the r leg. Same I can go into details which would be applicable to turns which you are critiquing.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 12 February 2013 - 21:02
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by ramgsd on 12 February 2013 - 20:02 |
| Hans I'm sorry but posts like "Hired dog no it is not a long line." aren't enough. YOU started this thread about training precision w/out an E-collar. Now go into some detail of what you would do. |
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Report Abusive |
OK fair enough. But that post will be long and I am leaving for training . I'll get to it later . I promise. Prager Hans
by Prager on 12 February 2013 - 21:02
Hi Jim!
OK heavy guns are comming. Well as long as we do not make it personal.
OK heavy guns are comming. Well as long as we do not make it personal.
by zdog on 12 February 2013 - 21:02
How's this for an answer?
I can train any dog you put in front of me to a level that I expect and appreciate with or without an ecollar. I don't give shit what anybody really think about it either. When I have to live my life by your values, let me know. Then maybe I'll care. Until then I'll be happy with my dogs :)
I've seen enough good and bad by my standards regardless of the tools used.
I can train any dog you put in front of me to a level that I expect and appreciate with or without an ecollar. I don't give shit what anybody really think about it either. When I have to live my life by your values, let me know. Then maybe I'll care. Until then I'll be happy with my dogs :)
I've seen enough good and bad by my standards regardless of the tools used.
by Hired Dog on 12 February 2013 - 22:02
Hans, first, you have heard of conditioning the dog with the E collar BEFORE you ever turn it on, correct? If you do this right, and this is where I said, "if you understand the E collar completely and correctly", the dog will not have any problems listening when the collar comes off.
Second, if you screw up, a lot of people do this, give a command, the dog does not respond, they stim, the dog responds...that is the screwing up part, you WILL teach the dog to wait for the tactile language instead of responding to your voice.
There are ways to make sure the dog responds the first time, quarter second stim with the command, gives it more authority and trains the dog to respond faster. There is a whole protocol to this that its too long to talk about, but, when you have some time, look up NEPOPO, study it, see what you think. In my opinion, I believe that its the only way to train for high end competitions or real life work.
As far as the left leg first deal, yes, it works well, but, I always taught the dog to "find the leg"...be near that leg at all times. Yes, Ivan trains that way and so does Bart and so does Andre. Now I will wait to see what way it is you were talking about, other then the long line.
Second, if you screw up, a lot of people do this, give a command, the dog does not respond, they stim, the dog responds...that is the screwing up part, you WILL teach the dog to wait for the tactile language instead of responding to your voice.
There are ways to make sure the dog responds the first time, quarter second stim with the command, gives it more authority and trains the dog to respond faster. There is a whole protocol to this that its too long to talk about, but, when you have some time, look up NEPOPO, study it, see what you think. In my opinion, I believe that its the only way to train for high end competitions or real life work.
As far as the left leg first deal, yes, it works well, but, I always taught the dog to "find the leg"...be near that leg at all times. Yes, Ivan trains that way and so does Bart and so does Andre. Now I will wait to see what way it is you were talking about, other then the long line.
by Koach on 12 February 2013 - 23:02
Re Bart Bellon, left leg, right leg. Bart himself. Short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wpGALlwCQEs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wpGALlwCQEs
by OGBS on 12 February 2013 - 23:02
Thank you Koach!
That is the way I train also.
That is the way I train also.
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