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by Prager on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
Hired dog: IF you know what you are doing, the dog will associate the E collar correction to the behavior it just engaged in, not you.
I actually believe that this is a problem. Call me crazy or bad, stupid dog trainer but when I train a dog I want him/her to actually know that it is me who is giving him corrections.
But this thread is not about if e collar is bad this is about other choices of training.
Prager Hans
I actually believe that this is a problem. Call me crazy or bad, stupid dog trainer but when I train a dog I want him/her to actually know that it is me who is giving him corrections.
But this thread is not about if e collar is bad this is about other choices of training.
Prager Hans
by ramgsd on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
I think you calling an E-collar a "short cut" is very incorrect. Perhaps you should take in a Bart Bellon seminar and see how someone that does it correctly uses it. The foundation is the same as any. No corrections until dog knows the exercise. Then when the dog knows the exercise and doesn't do it it receives a LEASH correction. When the dog understands a LEASH correction the E-collar is used on a low setting simultaniously with a LEASH correction. Slowly the leash correction is faded away and you now have the proper use of the E-collar. Hardly a "short cut." Actually has an extra step in there. So the E-collar is used the same as a LEASH and PRONG collar.... For CORRECTION never PUNISHMENT.
HANS QUOTE: "the relationship between the dog and trainer is strained or not clear and that it is better if no e collar is used since then the dog works 100% for the trainer."
I'm sorry I don't follow your logic here. So a dog that is trained with a prong isn't worried about that correction? E-collars will not hurt your relationship with the dog any more than a leash and prong, choke collar....
An E-collar is great for correcting a dog out of reach of any leash. Such as motion exercises, the send out, recalls, postions at a distance... So the dog never thinks that you can't correct him just because he's far away. So how would you suggest correcting the dog in that situation?
HANS QUOTE: "The training with e collar is faster and more reliable when the collar is on. That is for sure."
Isn't that true of any collar? Just like having to take off that prong collar you have to take off the e-collar.
The E-collar can also take any body language out of your corrections the dog might be able to read. Particularly if you use the "Finger Kick" control. (worn like a ring on your finger) Press the button and never break stride, maintain normal arm swing while walking.
Can it be done without an E-collar? I'm sure it can. Can it be done without a PRONG collar? I'm sure it can. But if the equipment is there it comes down to whatever you can use with your dog to gain the best results.
Again it doesn't sound to me like you have been around a trainer like Bart who really knows how to use and E-collar. (Just an assumption on my part/perhaps you have) If not I would definately try to.
HANS QUOTE: "the relationship between the dog and trainer is strained or not clear and that it is better if no e collar is used since then the dog works 100% for the trainer."
I'm sorry I don't follow your logic here. So a dog that is trained with a prong isn't worried about that correction? E-collars will not hurt your relationship with the dog any more than a leash and prong, choke collar....
An E-collar is great for correcting a dog out of reach of any leash. Such as motion exercises, the send out, recalls, postions at a distance... So the dog never thinks that you can't correct him just because he's far away. So how would you suggest correcting the dog in that situation?
HANS QUOTE: "The training with e collar is faster and more reliable when the collar is on. That is for sure."
Isn't that true of any collar? Just like having to take off that prong collar you have to take off the e-collar.
The E-collar can also take any body language out of your corrections the dog might be able to read. Particularly if you use the "Finger Kick" control. (worn like a ring on your finger) Press the button and never break stride, maintain normal arm swing while walking.
Can it be done without an E-collar? I'm sure it can. Can it be done without a PRONG collar? I'm sure it can. But if the equipment is there it comes down to whatever you can use with your dog to gain the best results.
Again it doesn't sound to me like you have been around a trainer like Bart who really knows how to use and E-collar. (Just an assumption on my part/perhaps you have) If not I would definately try to.
by Prager on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
OGBS you must kidding!!!
Hired dog:
there is no way to get into minute corrections at 30 feet away without one.
OH absolutely there is!!!!! Are you actually telling me that trainers before e collar had no way to correct the dog which is 30 feet away?
Hired dog:
there is no way to get into minute corrections at 30 feet away without one.
OH absolutely there is!!!!! Are you actually telling me that trainers before e collar had no way to correct the dog which is 30 feet away?
by Hired Dog on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
Hans, I have seen you claim that English is not your primary language, I understand that, neither is it mine, but, help me out here...on your post, you stated that "straining the relationship with your dog" is bad, yet, in your last post, you want the dog to understand that its you indeed that just caused it pain...am I missing something here?
Does that not strain your relationship? You are aware that there are some dogs out there, not that many, but, a few, that will cultivate an new anal opening for you if you cause them pain or believe the correction was not justified, arent you?
There are many choices of training tools, I happen to think that if you understand the E collar, it is the best complete system there is. I do not for a minute believe its for lazt trainers or those looking for shortcuts. I do believe it is for those who demand the best and who are willing to invest the time and effort to learn how to use one properly.
Does that not strain your relationship? You are aware that there are some dogs out there, not that many, but, a few, that will cultivate an new anal opening for you if you cause them pain or believe the correction was not justified, arent you?
There are many choices of training tools, I happen to think that if you understand the E collar, it is the best complete system there is. I do not for a minute believe its for lazt trainers or those looking for shortcuts. I do believe it is for those who demand the best and who are willing to invest the time and effort to learn how to use one properly.
by Hired Dog on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
OF COURSE there is a way Hans, its called a long line...now tell me, whats easier, a push of a button or pick up the line, reel it in, or pop it or whatever you were trying to do?
by VKGSDs on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
I do not see an e-collar as a shortcut and that's probably why I've never used one. I like the tools and methods I already have and have been satisfied with the results, both personally and how my dogs have performed in trial. I guess I am too lazy to go back and learn a totally different tool and make sure I do the correct foundation with my dogs so they understand how it is used. To me adding in the e-collar at this point looks like a LOT of work for me when I am already happy with my dogs' performance and level of proofing.
I take that back, the one way I *have* seen an e-collar as a shortcut are when novice trainers use them (not incorrectly) but hand off the remote to someone else. I don't think it's bad training but I do think as far as the novice handler is concerned, that's basically a shortcut because they are not learning how to time their corrections or -R stim and just leave it to someone else. Regardless of the tool I use, I insist on doing it myself. I don't have people demonstrate things to me with my own dog (he wouldn't comply anyway) and I don't let someone else handle my dog in protection either. Just a personal thing.
I take that back, the one way I *have* seen an e-collar as a shortcut are when novice trainers use them (not incorrectly) but hand off the remote to someone else. I don't think it's bad training but I do think as far as the novice handler is concerned, that's basically a shortcut because they are not learning how to time their corrections or -R stim and just leave it to someone else. Regardless of the tool I use, I insist on doing it myself. I don't have people demonstrate things to me with my own dog (he wouldn't comply anyway) and I don't let someone else handle my dog in protection either. Just a personal thing.
by ramgsd on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
HANS QUOTE: "But this thread is not about if e collar is bad this is about other choices of training."
Hans, if you truely just wanted posts about OTHER training methods you would not have made blanket, incorrect statements about E-COLLARS. You would have just called the thread Precision training without E-collars and left out your personal feelings.
Hans, if you truely just wanted posts about OTHER training methods you would not have made blanket, incorrect statements about E-COLLARS. You would have just called the thread Precision training without E-collars and left out your personal feelings.
by Prager on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
Hired dog no it is not a long line.
by Hired Dog on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
Ok Hans, it is not.
by ramgsd on 12 February 2013 - 20:02
Hans I'm sorry but posts like "Hired dog no it is not a long line." aren't enough. YOU started this thread about training precision w/out an E-collar. Now go into some detail of what you would do.
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