Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 18

Sorry, Jeff, it´s not my best day -
whatever you want to teach your dog, you first and foremost need to teach the basics - in this case the out, the sit and bark, the recall, and so on - step by step - without giving the dog the opportunity to disobey. It´s like building a house - stone after stone. Every stone has to be on its place, otherwise the house will break.
The different training steps are combined more and more, and the whole performance is the result.
Hope that helps
Kind regards,
Susie

Christopher, yes if someone can´t fix a down without letting a stranger correct the dog then that could be problematic, but surely many fix that without such correction, obedience or IPO-people. If someone can train a german pointer without no physical correction for hunting I guess a long down with a gsd or malinois is not really that hard, I know people who train with only rewards for this or maybe a random NO, and they have mals and train in protectionsports even if it isn´t IPO, certainly no e-collars. What the top 3 in the FCI all breed wolrdchampionship do or not do I find less intressting, it´ still only a few of so many that use e-collars that reach so far, so we shouldn´t give the e-collar to much credit for this, you can still compete on a high level obviously. Or have you training and scores improved dramatically  just becasue you use an e-collar you mean?

We shouldn´t give corrrections to much value either, plenty of people who uses them but still have no good controll on their dogs, in fact it´s not to uncommon it cause much problems, especially with a "strong" dog, corrections is a very small part of training anyway, people train with what they are used to , both corrections and purely rewardbased training it´s not that easy to master and I also find it tricky to take in all new stuff about what rewardbased training is in detail, most of us are used to the "traditional way" to train dogs I suppose.

Well Johan I guess you win. I'll let everyone in IPO know that they don't know what they are doing. Thanks for our salvation. Good Day.

He actually makes some pretty valid points

Validity is established on the trial field.

if the IPO trial field is your final measuring stick, then I guess that's all that counts. Carry on

Christopher, my intention was not to sound like I know everything, just to get some perspective when people started to fall back into the believe you need an e-collar to even handle a dog in SCH and police, even if there was some good IPO handlers that don´t use them mentioned. The people that are a level a bit over the rest in IPO the last few years seems to be the malinois people from german and finland, since e-collars been around for long I guess there is another secret to their sucess, clever "positive" training with less conflicts as one, and not thinking so much about how to punish behaviours but learning the dog the correct ones instead.

Johan,
If you believe that e-collars are only used as punishment, then you do not understand the full extent of their utility.
Go back and read this through this entire discussion. You may learn something.
What you may learn is that e-collars are used very effectively in "clever positive training with less conflicts" as you have put it.
That is what these discussions hopefully bring about. Open-minded exchanges of ideas so that people may learn.
I learned something in this thread. I had no idea that Ivan teaches people to lead with their right foot in obedience.
It doesn't make sense to me, but, if others are using that method effectively, good for them.

The main use is like other form of correctioncollars, give the dog some discomfort in various degree, if not I guess it´s not of much use. But by "positive" methods I wasn´t thinking so much about what type of corrections you use, instead I meant more clever ways to train the dogs without working against it so you don´t need to put the focus on corrections.