Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 17

Christopher, isn´t it more likely it can´t be done because you never did, or the ones you know never had done it? Not an "attack" on you just that I head it from IPO-folks before, that you can´t do it without corrections in obedience becaus they didn´t, some guru didn´t, or they didn´t know why exactly, or what working with rewards really was about., I mean most in the top train different compared to not so long ago, I guess at that time it was also things people said was correct then but have changed their view nowadays. A malinois seems to me be an excellent candidate for rewardbased obedience with their high drives, I mean there are even huntingdogs that are trained without corrections by people good at that type of training, so why would it be so hard for a IPO-dog to do their obedience also without corrections, obedience is obedience I suppose. If the dog is in a different mindset than a pure obedience dog because of the protectionphase, how would that affect the ability for the obedience-part, isn´t just to train with more distractions if the problem is that this makes the dog more "outgoing" on their surroundings? Not saying you are totally wrong, but I wonder if it´s not more about "training culture" and not so much about if it can be done or not.

Johan, first of all, you are making the wrong assumption that I and others have not trained dogs without an ecollar or without correction. I have done it and saw that the results are not what it would take to compete at the top levels of the sport. Many people in IPO are well versed in methods that don't use corrections or ecollar and start most dogs using those methods.

You need to remember that the most prevalent and common aspect of sport culture is that people want to win. If training a dog without the ecollar would get better results people would do it. Go back and read some of the earlier post on this thread and notice how many people dislike the ecollar because they feel that is a tool that people use as a shortcut to winning. People that use the ecollar are the same people that are winning. THIS A FACT!!!!

Finally , as much as you don't want to accept it, it takes a different type of dog to do the three phases of IPO than it takes for an obedience dog. It's not just a difference in the distractions or any nonsense like that... THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN THE DOGS. For instance, there is a long down in both sports. In obedience if a dog breaks a down it is very common to have a stranger correct the dog for breaking it's down. They use a stranger so that when the dog trials it knows that any person standing in or around the ring can correct it. It works great for that sport. But that same method should not be used with most IPO dogs. One, the dog might bite the stranger. Two, if the dog learns accepts the correction from the stranger it may affect the protection. I don't know of very many dogs that will accept a correction from a random stranger yet still want to fight an aggressive stranger in protection.
 
BTW, I have also titled dogs in obedience and a member of an obedience club too.

Chris,
I don't get it. You mean there is a difference when you are training Fluffly The Goldendoodle and the dog that has won the FCI IPO World Championship? How can this be?
So, Hasco may not respond to those yummy cheese curds I give Fluffy?


I would love to see any of the "happy-happy" competition obedience people, or any of you that feel a dog should only be trained without corrections, come out and train a Schutzhund/IPO dog (or French Ring, Mondio Ring, PSA, etc) with your treats, clickers, no's, and stares during the control (aka, obedience) parts of the protection phase. And, for those of you that won't do it because Schutzhund/IPO is a sport, go try the same thing with your local police dog while it is bite training.

As for the electric collar, as was said many, many pages ago, it's a tool. Some use it, some don't!
For high-level competition in the bite sports you will probably end up using it at some point, if not you'll likely end up living in a van down by the river!

OGBS I agree 100%.  Possitive only approach will always hit a rock when your dog decides that he likes something more then he likes your positive motivation.  Negative then must be stronger then the dog's  liking  of the wrong thing. 
Ying & Yang, up & down, good & evil, , R&L, Black&White, right and wrong, Good & bad,.....+ and -, .... denying this is   not smart. 
Prager Hans. 
 

I think people talk more about training then actually do it

Why do some people have such a hard time with compulsion? Its not a matter of talking or training, its a matter of accepting that in order to have a fully trained and proofed dog, you will  need to correct that dog when it requires a correction. This false notion to train correction free, to use only food/rewards is a huge part of whats causing all these untrained dogs to do the things you hear about. Running away, no recalls, counter surfing, etc.
Training ONLY works because of consequences, both good and bad. When your dog asks for a correction, dont disappoint it, correct it with enough emphasis to leave a lasting impression in its mind.

Just curious, but when doing bite work, how do you teach calling the dog off once you've sent him without an ecollar?  Or how do you call the dog off bite without an ecollar?

I thought that the ecollar wasn't just used for punishment.  I thought that it was also used to break the dogs focus such as when it was sent to bite the decoy (before it understand "NO!").

This thread is still alive - I don´t believe it!

Sure it´s possible - but for people who compete at a high level it´s a useful tool, not more, not less. It´s like washing clothes with a washing mashine instead of using the hands. Your clothes will become clean, but with the washing mashine it´s faster, easier, and maybe the clothes will become a littlebit cleaner - depends on who it´s doing....

I´d never blame someone who knows how to use an e-collar - but it´s not my first choice - I don´t like e-collars that much, used them only for 2 dogs during all the years, but I´m not interested in 300 points - maybe I´m too oldfashioned...

The 2 dogs I used them on, had a lot of drive, and without using the e- collar they would have failed protection work ( they both achieved a high V - rating ), but looking back I made the mistake. I encouraged their drive too much before they learned to out.

I don´t believe in positive enforcement only for high drive dogs though. There was a time parents educated their children with positive enforcement only - didn´t work, too.
Humans and canines learn best - like Prager said - right and wrong - praise and compulsion.E-collar or pinch collar doesn´t matter at that point, you only need to know what you are doing.

OGBS - loved your Fluffy response...

To Jeffs: Dogs were able to learn decades BEFORE e-collars even were invented.... it´s called training.

Hey Suzy - thanks for the insight.  Wise words indeed.  But I guess I'll have to take your word for it. 

Just for clarification, I didn't ask IF they were able to do it.  I asked HOW they were able to do it.  But once again, thanks for the insight.