What is a King Shepherd - Page 4

Stumpywop -  104 cm "to the withers"  probably means about 101  measured 
properly.  {ie with a m/stick, behind the wither}.   Nonetheless, a giant of a lad.  
If you have more success at downloading photos onto here than I do (!) could
you show us a pic of him, pls?

BTW [sorry mods I'm not really cross-posting, honest !]  does he sleep on 
your bed  ???     lol



Starrcharr  Yes I'm aware of that, lighten up. The conversation about Shilohs
between me n Sunsilver is now into its sixth month, she knows when I'm
kidding (I think).



Yours is still ONE dog;  every dog is 'representative' of its breeding, does not
mean that every dog contains everything in that breed, you could just as easily
have been unlucky with some aspect or other.  I too get sick of people over-
generalising about breeds, lines -  but we don't correct that by joining in with them.


PS  One of my dog Taz's (above)  "other faults"  is that he is a 66.5 cm dog.
That's quite oversized enough to be imposing;  and its like flat sharing with an
elephant aiready, JMO but I am glad he is no taller !

Starr's shiloh is more typical of the average shiloh temperament. However, as she says, (and I said) weak nerves are a problem with the breed, one that is not being addressed properly.

I think of breed temperament as being on a bell-curve, with very hard temperaments at one end of the curve and soft ones at the other. Ma Shiloh deliberately shifted the temperaments toward the softer side, to make the dogs easier to handle for your average Joe. This also meant that more dogs were being produced with temperaments that were TOO soft and too nervous. Fortunately, most temperaments still fall in the middle of the curve, but they do tend to be softer than the GSD.

I did have a GSD that would rate as 'soft'. My first one was more like a Golden than a GSD. Then, the next one I had was near the OTHER end of the bell curve. Fun times, learning to deal with her!

@Hundmutter, Sorry, I wasn't aware that you and Sunsilver had been having an ongoing discussion. She definitely is very knowledgeable- a walking encyclopedia (i think that statement ages me, lol!).

I'm not uptight, just tired of seeing the false info on this board (Im not referring to you). I dont feel as though I'm joining in with the generalization that many times exists on this board. I am not basing my opinions and statements about the Shiloh breed strictly on my own dog. Yes, mine is one dog and I shared what he is like,  but I belong to three Shiloh FB pages and have "real"  friends with Shilohs and based on what other Shiloh owners' have shared and what I have personally witnessed, my boy's temperament is quite typical. That's not to say that I haven't heard of or witnessed the fear issues and spookiness Sunsilver is referring to. They do exist :(  

Btw, I do feel We got very lucky with Josey, although I would not intentionally adopt a dog that is unstable and fearful. My husband flew fo North Carolina from Florida to spend three days with him before we agreed to foster him. It was only after we fostered him for a short time that we felt confident about adopting him. I was caring for my mom who was battling ovarian cancer at the time and was not looking for a "project" at all. The only reason we really have Josey is because our friends who originally fostered him would not take no for an answer! I did not want Josey or any Shiloh and I told them so many times.  I'm so glad our persuasive and relentless friends didn't give up on us! He is a gem of a dog. I wish I could clone him! Lol! 

So, back to the King Shepherds, it is my understanding that that they are very similar to the Shilohs. As SUnsilver mentioned the Kings were developed from the Shiloh lines.  My friend's KS is very much like my Josey, but I don't know much more than that.  

Please forgive the typos. Making corrections ith my iPad takes more time than it's worth. 

Plain and Simple FACT- King Shepherds AND Shilo Shepherds,Are NOT German Shepherds.

Sorry KitKat but I believe they still basically are GSDs, just altered ones.
The White Shepherd faction always try to argue the same, that they are
now a totally separate breed.   But unless someone has gone through
the quite extensive and time consuming - not to mention heart-breaking
and wasteful - process of  inbreeding, then outcrossing, then inbreeding
again, and planning and culling, that it really took to 'create' most of the
distinct Breeds we know today,  (which there is little evidence of, on the
whole)  and while GSDs  still crop up within 3 or 4 generations on their
pedigrees,  those dogs produced are still too close to their roots to be
considered wholly separated.  IMO.  At least the FCI now gives Breed
status to White Shepherds !  I think wrongly, but it does;  Shilohs and Kings
don't seem to be anywhere near being recognised by any registry.

 But unless someone has gone through
the quite extensive and time consuming - not to mention heart-breaking
and wasteful - process of inbreeding, then outcrossing, then inbreeding
again, and planning and culling, that it really took to 'create' most of the
distinct Breeds we know today

This WAS done. The last outcross was in 1990, and there have been no further outcrosses with the ISSR dogs since. I don't have the time or energy to hunt down proof, but here is the ISSR breed standard: http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandard.htm

I agree with kitkat Shilohs and King shepherds are not German Shepherd Dogs. Shilohs are marketed as old German Shepherds with a splash of new blood, part of this marketing states Remember how German Shepherds used to be? well they were never like that. People who breed King or Shiloh shepherds have no interest in breeding a German Shepherd Dog as it has existed at any point of time in the breed's history. I have no problem with someone starting a new breed but don't tell me you have improved the GSD when you have not. There is enough pure GSD stock out there for breeders to produce a GSD as it was intended as long as your perspective falls within the breed standard for both conformation and working ability. Conformation line breeders are paying attention to what their dogs are producing and are favoring dogs that can produce within the breed standard, If there are those who are marketing oversized dogs as King shepherds they have decided to no longer breed GSD's. Good breeders stop using dogs that produce health issues or who are producing offspring that fall outside of the breed standard. Some breeders can not afford to remove a dog from breeding for either financial or emotional reasons and will make up excuses to justify their actions. I trust Sunsilver enough to have made an educated decision on why she likes Shilohs but they are not GSD's. I have only had hands on contact with two Shilohs and both had wonderful pet temperaments. What I don't need however is the ill-bred shepherd lobby peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining. 

Humutter, with all due respect,white shepherds yes, they are German Shepherds, but the shilo and king Shepherds Are made up of other breeds.
They may stem from the German Shepherd, but they still are not pure.

Stumpywop, how are you measuring your dog? 104cm from the ground to the tips of the ears would be a huge German Shepherd Dog. 74cm to the top of the withers would be huge, are you sure you don't have a wolf hound?

Sunsilver I almost wrote "with the exception possibly of the Shilohs" in my
post in the 1st place;  then I thought about the conversations we've had 
about all the other people in the States (and elsewhere)  who SAY they
produce Shiloh Shepherds, without the right to say that;  and the things
that must have been done (and are probably still being done) in terms
of just using extra large GSDs in order to continue to produce their dogs
& maintain the income from sales - and I realised that one really can't
discount many of todays so called Shilohs still being largely GSD. 


Kitkat - you seriously think noone has put any Samoyed blood into the
White Shepherd ?   Think about how difficult it is to get that perfect
black pigment in the white GSD.  Then ask yourself how come they
are getting entropian in White Shepherds - how many cases of entropian
do we normally see in GSDs ?  I cannot prove this but ya gotta wonder !

Anyway - as far as Shilohs go, see my comment to Sunsilver.  And if it is
true there were no 'Kings' before there were Shilohs, and the first 'Kings'
were an unauthorised attempt at Shilohs that had to be renamed ... well
just how many lines of either Shiloh or Kings being sold out there do
YOU think are true-breeding, totally estranged from their GSD ancestry ?
Why do we have confusions over naming such as 'Roblew1'  tells us of ?


Guys, pls believe me I am NOT promoting this sort of breeding;  noone wants
the GSD to remain 'unsullied' in body and temperament, and close to the
original Max blueprint,  more than I do !  But the reality is, the popularity of
GSDs and the way they have proved easy to mess about with, has led us
down this path, and it is better to admit what goes on and be clear about
it  than to do the 'ostrich' thing.