Table Training theory and application. - Page 4

Very very good post Jim....that is exactly the way I view tables and boxes. What you wrote has been my experience also....like I said the post is a great starter tool for pups and the table is for more mature elements. 
Qman ....I look for the same things as you wrote in your post. Two days ago I introduced my 14 month old to the full bodysuit. By the end of the day he was biting full and hard on the suit. This is a necessary progression for me to flush potential weaknesses. As you and Jim well know , many dogs that have full bites on sleeves when they have to engage a complete body you can see insecurities. These things need to be flushed out....I don't want a dog that need a correct presentation to work well....he was on the table at 10 months working grips for a short while. In about 3months I will put him back up there and have him worked a lot like Jim described. I will introduce him to the muzzle at around 18 months and if he is sailing along like I think....then I am comfortable he will be capable of dual purpose or sport work. 
I'm like Jim in that I understand a lot of people don't like or use table similar to some people don't like or use remotes, but it unquestionably has value to some, especially green dogs in preparation for police service work as Jim so eloquently described.

Slamdunc wrote: Dogs when they get agitated especially when trying to apprehend a combative subject will bite Officers if they get in the way.....

ha ha....good one buddy....hey folks, ever try breaking up a dog fight.....first rule of thumb...don't stick your hand in there:-)

Table, pole...same objective....get the handlers hands off the leash...

the whole handler/helper/dog scenario is spot on as far as what Jim wrote is concerned....pjp...I do get what you're saying about the handler involvment....I'd like the handler to start by genuinely praising there dog...I've seen so many who can't do that properly...and don't understand the problem it causes....partners...encourage each other:-)

Hey Ron, I think we all agree with pjp as far as handler dog interaction is concerned, and like all tools in the wrong hands damage can be done. However, I have found a fundamental bias against tables in a lot of sport clubs and with sport people. (The exception being sport people who are from police backgrounds or train with police occasionally), often these biases are not grounded in experience as much as what they been told or saw on YouTube. Tables are not new( I know you know this Ron), many of the green dogs that come into this country have been shaped with table work. Many of these same dogs go on to productive careers in LE and sometimes sport. That's why I equate it to the remote, I have seen countless people opposed to the remote that have limited if any knowledge of its use, and go off on tangents about the evils. But what about the many many successful applications....you can't ignore them and make a VALID point. That's why I say tables and boxes are not for everyone, but for someone to be so all knowing(and I don't mean pjp) that they can decree the table has no value is ludicrous .....and there are people out there like that. You know, if its not my way then it's not the right way....hahaha.

Right Gustav....I've found the same bias concerning the table. I agree with your meaningful comments!

Gustav and Ron  

Just as aside Gustav, I guess Schutzhund/sport clubs across the country must be very different because here in MI, like most Schutzhund/sport clubs in MI/IN/OH/IL, many clubs have and use the box/post/table/suit/muzzle, and we do building searches in the middle of the night in dark strange buildings, etc as a regular part of sport training.  And many clubs out here have active K9 officers in their membership.  Our club's K9 unit won the Regional police dog championship this year.  Brian Harvey, of Der Michigan Sch Verein and a presenter at the 2012 Police & Military Dog Conference, has started calling what we do "Old School Schutzhund" lol.. this is the more the norm in this area rather than the exception.  

You are right Valerie, your area is rich in clubs/people with police members or affiliations, that area( Michigan and Illinois) also has SDA clubs or former SDA or PSA clubs that also use all of these tools. But many many SCH clubs and their officers don't subscribe to this type training.

Gustav pointed out (in two different posts, actually) that the clubs in which you'll find tables being used will typically be those that also train in PPD or with LEO's or both.  Sounds like your club, Valerie, like mine and like Bob's fall into that category.

Judron - "Table, pole...same objective....get the handlers hands off the leash"

....Couldn't be farther from the truth.



I dont want to get into this again and beat the same old horse but in terms of taking direction from the decoy/bad guy, whatever the hell you want to call him.............Think of it as a boxing coach and student sparring.  The boxing coach can give direction and praise the young student etc. 

an old post I Wrote up on this very same subject.

"

If you dont know how to train utilizing tables, please seek out Gene England. There are a few that train that are very good with this system but more than likely because of the lack of understanding and persona that ignorant people cause of the tables they are not going to let you in to "learn how to table train"  Please do not find a picture of a table online, build it, agitate the dog on it and call it table training.  Please do not seek out some hack that says he's a table training guru that publishes articles or posts a ton of videos about such training.  It's processes like that that make people not understand those of us that can properly and successfully base an entire training system around the 3 different tables.    Table training is not only for Force training, problem aggressive dogs, weak dogs.   It has and is implemented in schutzhund to a high degree.  It is not for lazy helpers.  Table training is for building powerful confident dogs.  It is for building the foundation work in young dogs.  It it for training the guard, the articles in tracking, the dumbell, the out, the sit, down, platz, stand.  It is for building a powerful, confident, controlled dog.  It is also for building confidence in a weak dog. It is for building a balanced Schutzhund dog that would have no problem transitioning to the streets. The proper table should LIMIT options of the dog but not limit the dog from choosing and going through its options in the bite work.  Proper utilization does not involve tying a dog to a table and pressuring it into defensive hectic aggression.  For instance, think of the square table as a boxing ring, the helper the coach and the dog the young student.   If I am the coach I have to first build a relationship of trust.  The dog must know that I will not violate this trust and will not be unfair to him.  I should be able to touch him, pat him, touch him with the stick, control his head and handle his paws.  While doing this I will NEVER break this trust.   now I will build on small victories.  The helper must be an actor and PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING.  Through suspicion I will agitate the dog (not crazy, whip cracking, or causing unfair pain to the dog).  More than likely he will not come out crazy and powerful at first but through small reactions to me being suspicious or threatening such as coming forward, a growl, a bark he begins to have small victories.  These small victories begin the building of a stronger dog as he begins to work through stronger pressure.  If the dog choses not to react to me appropriately and turn away or try to leave, the table simply does not allow him to.  I can mark the correct behavior by being ran off or even by marking the behavior and becoming non threatening and letting the dog know he was correct in his reactions.  We equate this with a boxing coach telling his student he layed a good hit during a sparing session. Eventually the dog will work through all levels of threat.....Suspicion, Threat, Danger and Pain.  Through confidentally working through all levels and through small victories he will become a very powerful dog.       This is a very very basic idea of some of the work that can be done.  By no means could anyone take this explanation and properly implement into a table training program.   Table training is not the only way to build a good dog.  It is how some of us choose to train a dog and have success with.   It is, however the most mis-understood training.    As stated before, please do not try to do this without a very clear understanding of the table by working with Gene or someone that has worked directly under him and has not taken his ideas and program and butchered it.  you will find many different types of tables online that are incorrect.  A table should not be an elevated back tie, there is a reason for them being built to certain specifications.  Good Luck"

Yep, I saw him mention it. I was just emphasizing that it is a common tool in sport clubs in the Midwest, for the benefit of the many people who read these boards.