DDR, Czech and West Germany working bloodline - Page 5

Gustav I tend to disagree with you. It all depends on what combinations you are makeing  You may be right and you may be wrong. 

@Prager....and that's alright...I can only go by what I have seen within police here and the sport world. I do not know the Czech lines as well as you, so I don't have the depth of knowledge of combinations from that perspective. I am still learning in the Czech world, but consider a host of people as good references to check what I can't see( to include yourself). But I have seen the western lines become more prey driven as the years go by, and I see more Czech/West dogs getting more sporty....again I realize my opinions are formed on my limited exposure to the Czech element in comparison to you. But maybe I am missing a big piece of the puzzle.....either way it's a learning experience....lol

Gustav Yes that is the truth. After Iron curtain opened the Czechs wanted to compete on world arena and started to breed dogs specialized for that purpose. But not all. There are still people who breed  and strive to breed the old style GSD. 
Another thing I would like to say. I am originally Czech I like Old style Czech dogs . That is why I brought them into US and breed them for 30+ years here.  However lets not get stuck on stupid. If the dog is fitting my "Czech" style dog definition, then I will use it regardless if it came from Czech, Slovak or West Germany or Rwanda Burundi.  Ultimately all dogs came from Germany  and what this is all about is to produce all around versatile working dogs which I believe the Czech dogs of old style fit the best the muster. JMO.   And if WG dog will help me to get there then I will use such dog. If I find out later that such dog failed my definitions then  I will select him/her out of my breeding program.  

Blitzen, I can only speak to my experiences....I have imported many puppies and at least 5 adults...all the adults had titles and hip certifications....all of the puppies were out of titled dogs with hip certifications......I can only speak to what I know personally.

Gustav, above is your post on the Jirkova Dvora bad hips Forum...Your posts there make you out as if you are the expert (the be all and know all about Czech GSD's...and here you are like an amateur...i'm seriously confused...

Aadilah, I have been breeding Czech dogs for about 15 years, German dogs for 37, when it comes to Czech dogs and a person like Hans who has been active in that line for close to 40 years, I am a novice....but when it comes to many others not familiar with the Czech lines I probably am very knowledgable. But I will tell you this, just by nature of your comments, we are not on the same level when it comes to this breed. Now you can take it you are superior, or not, really doesn't affect me and doesn't change the facts. One of the good things about long time experience in venues, it is easy to recognize those who are still where you have already been.
dont know if that answers your question, but it's the best (and only...lol) answer I can give you....hope it helps.

Aadilah07, of the dozens of gsd's I've owned every one of them descended from Ingo Rudingen, a majority through Held and Bero, and some Titus.  All were fairly good dogs overall, and I STILL like that bloodline, a lot.  But, I what I personally consider to be the characteristics of a "highly trainable" dog, I have NOT found Ingo bloodlines to be a good source.

The reason I sought out west working bloodlines, was for a stronger innate desire to train, prompt compliance, better drive and focus, and the ability to sustain that drive and focus.  Sure, there's examples of Ingo descendants that offer these characteristics, but it's my belief the compliment is due to contributers OTHER than Ingo.  Of course "they had nice bone structure, nice rich colours and nice heads... amazing temperaments and good natural aggression..." but I never said they didn't.

Those characteristics are not central to "high trainability", which was my theme for discussion here, particularly in regard for competitive events.  Ingo and others themselves may have been highly trainable dogs, back in the day, I couldn't say.  But, over generations of time, breeder selection has taken the DDR dogs down a different course, one that has typically retained good bone, rich color, blocky heads, although now even the natural aggression is fading from their repertoire.

In a working capacity, I feel that Czech dogs generally excell over DDR, and for competitive sporting events, they are again trumped, by the west german workinglines.  At this point (in my admittedly limited DDR dog experience) I would bother with them about as much as I'm inclined to tamper with the showline variety.  I have always liked DDR based bloodlines of the former Czech border patrol, and for the basis of my breeding that works fine.  But I'd prefer to give it a little tune up.

Darrel it looks like that you like more extremely  prey driven sport WG lines and that you tend to equate high trainability with  high prey drive. That is fine  and common misguided approach to understanding of GSD these days. ....unfortunatelly.  There is no law against that type of a taste.  However that understanding of GSD also leads to demise of GSD as a working dog (and not just a sport dog)  as it was originally intended by it's creator and that is a shame. Not even German police will use WG lines any more that much if at all and take rather Malinois, Dutch shepherds  and GSD from Czech, Slovakia, Belgium and Holland.   We ourselves have several our dogs working with German police. 
I would also like to say that with advancement of competitive sport there is development of type of training based on high prey drive. That of course is not proper training approach to old style dogs and as  it is misguidedly attempted on them,  then that leads to failure  and subsequent to opinions like yours.  Square peg vs round hole and so on. 
I would also like to ad that police and other LE, Military, and security agencies  here in USA if they buy GSD at all all then they mostly require Old style GSDs and reject sport prey driven mostly  type dogs which are result of competitive sport breeding. . As a matter of fact as a point in case is my contract with AZDOC ( Arizona Department of Corrections) which requires Malinois, Dutch shepherds, and (Old style) Czech GSDs.  They specifically do not want WG GSDs . I can name other LE agencies like Gwinnett co GA SO and on and and on. That is a request  which is quite common with people who actually work their dogs and do not use them just for competitive sport. 
Another point in case is this article  which happens to coincide with my first hand  experience.:
http://leerburg.com/99bundes.htm
Prager Hans
 

Police Dept's in my experience and what I like and select are high prey, high drive dogs.  The dog must have civil aggression and switch to defense very quickly when needed.  For a Police dog high prey is essential, there is no way around that!  A dog must have high drives, be fairly social and able to turn on aggression instantly.  A GSD with out prey drive is useless as a Patrol dog and will not be adequate or successful.  High prey and it's counterpart drives of hunt drive, toy drive and tracking drive are what the dog is primarily used for.  Low prey drive dogs simply will fail in day to day Police work.  Next is true aggression and the innate desire to fight and win.  I select dogs that are slightly higher in prey than defense, but the dog must convince me that he will engage for real with out equipment and will want to fight the man.  I do this phase of testing with out equipment and it is serious;  the dog must bring aggression and confidence.  

It seems many people knock prey drive these days and "high prey drive" dogs.  I have and work a very "high prey drive,"  higher prey than defense and very high drive, high prey (did I say that already?) dog that will easily engage a man with serious aggression on command or with the slightest provocation.  The dog is 60 / 40 prey to defense.  I instill the prey drive especially in bite work!  Please realize that prey brings speed,  prey drive brings hard hits and take down decoys or bad guys.  Speed is what brings power and that power takes subjects / decoys down.  A dog sent on a  down field hit working in prey will bring explosive speed and power.  A dog taught that a man running, charging and screaming straight at him is prey will bring explosive speed and power.  That is really the key that many seem to miss when it comes to "prey drive" dogs.  After the hit the dog can switch to defense and fight, before the hit it is prey.  A high prey drive dog will have  a longer more satisfying and rewarding career than a lower prey drive dog.   Prey is essential, balanced with natural aggression.  If we lose the prey drive in our working GSD's we will have nothing but a nasty nerve bag in GSD fur.  If we reduce the prey than I will only select Malinois and Dutch Shepherds and it is getting that way.  Balance is the key and for me that balance is high drives, slightly high prey than defense, good nerves, clear head and true aggression in a fairly social dog.  

Too much defense brings insecurity, weak nerves and a whole lot of other issues.  

JMO FWIW

Hans, while it's true I view prey drive as a vital component to the trainability factor, do not oversimplify and neglect the other mentioned characteristics of importance I have also stressed.  As far as prey drive itself goes, I share Slamdunc's sentiments mostly.  As long as the prey drive isn't so "high" that it interferes with overall control and trainability, that it comes with a clear enough head to handle those levels, I'm almost inclined to say "the more, the better".  Even moderate prey drive can seem like "too much" when the dog is without focus and control.  When something like prey drive is over emphasized in breeding, and other important characteristics are neglected (courage or aggression, as example), then sure, you may feel apt to blame high prey drive itself in the resulting progeny.  But, I assure you, high prey drive is not synonomous with weak nerves or any other negative association you may tend to make of it FOR THE SAKE OF ITSELF.