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Echo, I was stating that the parent was untitled, and the breeder doesn't even have enough knowledge to properly identify what the coat is. Not however it was you took it. You should be proud to do the work of earning titles. I'm not sure what you meant there. What upsets me is people "learning" by breeding right off the bat instead of spending time learning what to do. If she doesn't know what she's doing, she shouldn't be breeding, period. So, I hope she has a hard time selling them, yes. Otherwise she'll keep producing untitled backyard puppies if she has easy success doing it.

I missread that then, I do appologize. However I will stick to my guns, that offering good advice will do more for this individual than moching her will do. Moch her and make her feel stupid and unworthy, she's gonna give up trying to do "right" and just continue on the way things are. I was warned when I decided to become a breeder that there would be people out there to "cut my throat" but you know what ?? Those people a few and far between, but the impact of just one nasty individual can make you wonder if it's all worth it, Then it takes 10 "good guys" to convince to keep fighting for what is "right"

Thanks Echomeadows! Hateful criticism by some people in the Schutzhund club I took 3 friends to a while back made those people, one of whose husband was a Lt in a quite large Police Dept., and use to be a K9 handler and his wife was interested in titling and breeding her new shepherd ,make the decision to stay at home and buy Susan Barwigs book and train her gsd on her own and to heck with titling her dog SHe saw no pleasure in being around anyone with that kind of hateful criticism . You get more results out of sugar coated words than words dipped in vinegar>>>>>>

I guess the only thing I would add to this is that it would be nice to be able to call 10 different breeders on the phone, and say... "I'd like to learn all there is to know about being a responsible breeder could I come hang out at your place volunteer some time to you, and be a sponge?" And to have 10 of 10 say "yes" with enthusiasm rather than critisism. Sadly I don't see that happening, But I could be wrong. I think though if that happened more often, that people would then be willing to pick up the phone and ask the ? in the first place. I think most people feel that they are forced to seek knowledge from books, vets, internet, and other sources rather than a breeder as they are "afraid" of responses that might be viewed "hasty". JMO

I agree, dog breeding seems like espianage(sp) no one wants to put all of their info on the line and share lines and be crucially honest. How often do you hear a breeder tell you the faults in his/her dogs? I always hear, they are great, nothing bad I can say about either parent. Yeah OK whatever! It would be nice to be taken under the wing of the more ezperienced breeders, before they die taking their secrets to the grave. I don't understand the secretivness and what it is going to accomplish. Most people learn by doing/self taught so of course they get better as they go. These people get put down for not doing it correctly the first time, like perfection is expected and they end up giving up. You can't ask questions about hips, coat, or lines or you "look" stupid, so you read more or just go on uninformed. Me I'm pretty strong and don't give a rats behinde what or how people comment on my posts. If I have a question, I ask it. I want to know or I want other opinions. I do not care if another person on here thinks I am crazy or stupid for asking. However allot of people are put off by the critics and I think it's a shame. We come here to learn not be yelled at for asking questions.

Kristen I wouldn't feel bad about saying "might" be a coat either. Sometimes it is hard to tell even by very experienced breeders. I have also heard of a few "coats" being sold with long hair coming out of the ears included only to shed out to a normal adult coat. Good luck finding your kids a home!