Training Advice using ear pinch on agressive dog? - Page 2

Pain induced corrections and violence do not work well for many aggressive dogs.  An inexperienced handler pinching, flanking, using an ecollar or prong on an already enraged aggressive dog is a very good way to get bit.  With out seeing the dog or having more information it is hard to give advice on what to do.  I would strongly caution to avoid any pain induced corrections until you know how the dog will react and if the OP can handle a severe adverse reaction.  If the dog has displaced aggression or redirects back to the handler the OP is going to get bit.  Some dogs won't do that, but the ones that do will absolutely come up the leash or turn and nail the handler.  

For softer dogs the "flanking" or pinching a sensitive spot may work ok.  I can tell you that a harder dog will either ignore it or redirect.  Pinching or flanking a dog can escalate aggression and it is a technique that can be used by an experienced handler to increase rage in a dog.  There are times in my line of work when this is a good thing.  You really need to be very careful and understand the temperament and the cause and effect that different techniques can have.  Prong collars, pinching, flanking, ecollars, hitting, screaming, etc for one dog may extinguish a behavior on a different dog it may escalate and enrage the dog even further.  This is why so many people have issues with their dogs.  

He can get a little aggressive when people approach me and the trainer wants me to grab his collar bring it up and pinch his ear between the links. (I'd have to trade him prong for a choke chain) 

It could be that the OP is not clearly explaining what the trainer is advising to do.  It seems the method the OP is trying to describe may be to use a choke chain and lift up pulling the collar up around the dog's neck.  I'm really not sure.  Here's my best advice when doing things with aggressive dogs:  Stay away from the sharp end!  

Putting your hands on the collar like that may not be the best technique either.  This is one of those times where it is really impossible to give advice with out seeing the dog or understanding what exactly is going on.  One thing is for sure, without seeing the dog I can suggest what not to do.  

I would not put my hands anywhere near the head of an actively aggressing dog, nor would I flank one as this would require me to bend down and put my face closer to the dog. If your dog redirects, you will get bit. Like Slam said, maybe your trainer meant something else?

I think the OP understood the trainer perfectly;  I was told to do the same thing when my dog was younger and acting like a jacka- - ;  however, later on it made matters worse;  I was also taught to use the ear pinch for retrieving which OK, I will say it did work but I hated every minute of it and so did my dog.  Gave him somewhat of a shitty attitude later and sometimes he just plain would shut down.  Not at all a good scenario and not at all what you want your dog to do.  Find a different trainer with new thoughts and training techniques for you to try, sort of a new beginning if you will.  Whatever you do, good luck with him  Nan.

michael49.....good point that it would not work on a dog that is already in aggressive state...
It works for me because I use it waaaaay before my dog gets there, 10 times easier to prevent than to try and stop it...if the dog is already in aggressive state when it will bite handler/owner than better just ride that wave and work on preventing a next one...i usually nip it in a butt at the first indication of a direction that I dont want my dog going to...

if the dog is already in aggressive state when it will bite handler/owner than better just ride that wave and work on preventing a next one...


Couldn't have said that better myself, LadyFrost

I disagree with letting a dog in an aggressive that will bite the handler to just ride the wave and work on preventing the next one, but that is just me.  I would deal with it directly.  The best prevention is recognizing that the possibility exists and making sure it doesn't happen in the first place.  If the dog is in an aggressive state and the handler / owner just let's it happen then the dog has again won another battle and possibly the war.  I am a firm believer in "picking my battles" with aggressive dogs and choosing the time and place when it suits me and I am prepared to win if that luxury is afforded.  However, there are situations that are sometimes out of our control and riding the wave is something I am not going to do.  I have owned and trained dominant, hard,  aggressive dogs for years and I prefer an approach that clearly shows I am in charge and inappropriate aggression will not be tolerated.  I do not need to resort to fighting with my dogs as I have learned better ways over the years to deal with handler aggression.  I have been bitten many times and I prefer not to be nailed by my own dogs.  Unfortunately, I do get tagged at work training other dogs.  But that is part of the job.  

I am not recommending jumping in and having a "come to Jesus" meeting with an aggressive dog unless you are prepared to get bit and can handle the dog.  However, for those that own dogs with behavioral issues if you are not prepared to take the bull by the horns, the dog most certainly will be prepared the next time.  

I think it is easier to modify the dog's behavior than try to prevent it.  When a dog learns a behavior is unacceptable and results in unpleasant consequences they are less likely to repeat that behavior.  Even better is when a dog learns that appropriate behavior is rewarded and encouraged.  Dogs seem to want to repeat behaviors that are consistently rewarded and reinforced.  

I am so sorry that it has taken this long for me to reply.

Thank you for all the advice! I drove 6 hours to work a very nice trainer that does schutzhund mainly. She helped me for a few days working on nothing but focus and bonding better with Taz. She taught me all about clicker training and positive reinforment with corrections. We have found that clicker training is his one true love. He now steals the clicker off the counter and brings it to me. haha

I won't say he is 100% fixed and I don't think he will ever be but we can go out in public and have people walk over to us without incident. We just make sure Taz is focused on me. I can even bring his attention back to me if he does start to get his hackles up. I even had him a dog vest made that says "Please don't pet me, I don't really like you." in big red letters. 

Tawny,
That is good news, who is the trainer that you went to?  

That vest...LOL

Every single one of my dogs absolutely if I used pain would bite and though probably  not me, eachother or the thing they are already wanting to bite and if they are really riled up, it would have to be a whole lot.  Even though I can't always read a video,  I have dealt with aggressive dogs that were given up as too hard to handle and I would pick your battles very carefully and win every one you pick.  Until you are fully bonded you are taking a risk with a rescue and using force.  You might break a soft dog, increase fear based aggression in one who already has fear issues, and push a hard dog to test you and if you don't win that battle you are in trouble.  There are lots of means and opportunities to get the dog to respect you and then obey if you are telling him to leave it, no matter how much he wants to bite it and a lot of them involve calmly working with the dog, just as you are and having the dog do small things, like lie down on command.  The dog needs to know when you ask you expect and when he does he is rewarded (even if with just praise).  Anticipating when the dog will react is important and redirecting or correcting in some way just when he stiffens, or he gets that look in his eye is really helful rather than waiting until he is actually trying to bite.  I never let my dogs have that look or elect to ignore me, but I don't use pain either.  If two of my males (or sometimes all three) wanted to get into it, if I hit, or did something to one that hurt, that would trigger the fight.  I do correct, I do make them down (harder to get aggressive when they are lying down which is an innately submissive position), I do use body english, but that is not the time to jerk the pinch collar.  There will come a time, perhaps when the clicker wont be there or he wont listen and then you have to be able to use your realationship, voice, leash etc to reinforce.  Of course if he is bonded with you, he is much more eager to listen.