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by Blitzen on 19 February 2012 - 01:02
We Yanks do love winners, Abby. Mildy embarassed is being kind.
by Blitzen on 20 February 2012 - 17:02
The GSDCA does not require clean hips and elbows for GV's. They do require that for an ROM award (OFA, OVC, or SV). The ROM must also have earned a performance degree in OB, tracking, herding, rally or Sch.
A bit of history - in 1937 the first GSDCA Grand Victor was a German dog, Pfeffer v Bern. He was also the German National Sieger.
A bit of history - in 1937 the first GSDCA Grand Victor was a German dog, Pfeffer v Bern. He was also the German National Sieger.
by Silbersee on 20 February 2012 - 20:02
Hi Blitzen, sorry for not commenting sooner.
I read through the blog to which you provided a link for. It is heart wrenching to see photos of dogs who are deaf and blind. They are in this world because their creators (these people do not deserve to be called breeders) wanted them for whatever low reason they have (money, greed, fame, etc, etc,). I am talking about these (surplus) puppies who are born with genetic defects, the known and calculated risk!s I took the time and googled the breeding regulations for Collies, Border Collies, Corgis, Bearded Collies, and Old English Sheepdogs (Bobtails) in Germany. There are several breed organizations and all have stringent health requirements (if they belong to the VDH and therefore are affiliated with the FCI). One big club represents all of these breeds: Club für Britische Hütehunde (CFBRH) e.V." (Club for British Herding Dogs). The breeding requirements are very strict: Dogs with genetic and/or congenital defects are excluded from breeding, no breeding of merle to merle or zobel (the braun and white), merle dogs are only to be bred to tricolor, no breeding of dogs with "white factor". Puppies have to be chipped at around 6 weeks old and immediately after have to be examined for eye diseases. There is a form that needs to be filled out for each individal puppy. This all takes place before the puppy leaves the breeder. Breeding dogs need more exams for genetic diseases before they can be breed surveyed - yes, these dogs need surveys as well, they have class one or two (just like GSD). This club has breed wardens who have to visit and certify litters as well.
The U.S. is sorely lacking these safeguards because the AKC is "just" a registry. Doesn't a registry have a certain responsibility to fulfill as well? I would like to compare the AKC to the VDH (the German umbrella organization of all breed clubs). The VDH regulates a lot, from breeding to showing to keeping dogs. Breed clubs abide by it, in addition to adding their own club or breed specific regulations. A good example that just impressed me a lot: The VDH sent a letter to all breed clubs (I read it on the SV site and now on the CFBRH site as well) and warned that any breeder selling puppies to a certain pet store will be banned from membership to any breed organization under the VDH umbrella. The animal welfare law in Geramny does not forbid the selling of puppies in pet stores but since 1991 all stores followed their self bestowed restriction not to do so. Now, there is a certain store who is starting this practice and is solicitating breeders for puppies.
Anyway, to make a long story short: It justifies my belief to buy my dogs overseas from reputable breeders as they have to follow stringent regulations with the welfare of that particular breed in mind, even foreign breeds. That is truly sad, isn't it? To go to Europe (in my case Germany) to buy a dog, so I can be assured that the likelihood of breed specific diseases is minimal.
Chris
I read through the blog to which you provided a link for. It is heart wrenching to see photos of dogs who are deaf and blind. They are in this world because their creators (these people do not deserve to be called breeders) wanted them for whatever low reason they have (money, greed, fame, etc, etc,). I am talking about these (surplus) puppies who are born with genetic defects, the known and calculated risk!s I took the time and googled the breeding regulations for Collies, Border Collies, Corgis, Bearded Collies, and Old English Sheepdogs (Bobtails) in Germany. There are several breed organizations and all have stringent health requirements (if they belong to the VDH and therefore are affiliated with the FCI). One big club represents all of these breeds: Club für Britische Hütehunde (CFBRH) e.V." (Club for British Herding Dogs). The breeding requirements are very strict: Dogs with genetic and/or congenital defects are excluded from breeding, no breeding of merle to merle or zobel (the braun and white), merle dogs are only to be bred to tricolor, no breeding of dogs with "white factor". Puppies have to be chipped at around 6 weeks old and immediately after have to be examined for eye diseases. There is a form that needs to be filled out for each individal puppy. This all takes place before the puppy leaves the breeder. Breeding dogs need more exams for genetic diseases before they can be breed surveyed - yes, these dogs need surveys as well, they have class one or two (just like GSD). This club has breed wardens who have to visit and certify litters as well.
The U.S. is sorely lacking these safeguards because the AKC is "just" a registry. Doesn't a registry have a certain responsibility to fulfill as well? I would like to compare the AKC to the VDH (the German umbrella organization of all breed clubs). The VDH regulates a lot, from breeding to showing to keeping dogs. Breed clubs abide by it, in addition to adding their own club or breed specific regulations. A good example that just impressed me a lot: The VDH sent a letter to all breed clubs (I read it on the SV site and now on the CFBRH site as well) and warned that any breeder selling puppies to a certain pet store will be banned from membership to any breed organization under the VDH umbrella. The animal welfare law in Geramny does not forbid the selling of puppies in pet stores but since 1991 all stores followed their self bestowed restriction not to do so. Now, there is a certain store who is starting this practice and is solicitating breeders for puppies.
Anyway, to make a long story short: It justifies my belief to buy my dogs overseas from reputable breeders as they have to follow stringent regulations with the welfare of that particular breed in mind, even foreign breeds. That is truly sad, isn't it? To go to Europe (in my case Germany) to buy a dog, so I can be assured that the likelihood of breed specific diseases is minimal.
Chris
by Blitzen on 20 February 2012 - 21:02
I don't know, Chris. I honestly would not want the AKC telling me which health tests I needed to do in order to register a litter. I think that must be left to the individual breed clubs. I don't know how it is in Germany or the rest of Europe, but as you know too, we are a a sue crazy country. I can't see most dog breeders allowing AKC to make and enforce nanny laws governing their breeding programs.
What the AKC could do would be to enforce the existing Breeder's Code of Ethics that most breed clubs require their members to sign when renewing their annual membership. AKC says these Codes can't be used in a punative manner, only as an educational tool. A current C of E may say something like - it is recommended that member should xray hips and elbows before breeding and use only dogs found to be normal for breeding. More teeth could be added - members MUST xray hips and elbows and only use normal dogs for breeding. Most breed clubs truly are frustrated that AKC will not allow them to enforce their Codes or to make them more stringent.
I know a fair number of people in Europe who breed dogs and they have told me essentially the same thing you have said about restrictions on which dogs they can breed. When I was watching the Westminster I was surprised to learn that there are only 2 breeds that are allowed to be housed out of doors in Finland. I also know people who have purchased GSD's and other breeds from Europe and ended up with sick dogs or dogs with titles that ran from the helper.
We will still be debating this 5 years from now I think LOL.
What the AKC could do would be to enforce the existing Breeder's Code of Ethics that most breed clubs require their members to sign when renewing their annual membership. AKC says these Codes can't be used in a punative manner, only as an educational tool. A current C of E may say something like - it is recommended that member should xray hips and elbows before breeding and use only dogs found to be normal for breeding. More teeth could be added - members MUST xray hips and elbows and only use normal dogs for breeding. Most breed clubs truly are frustrated that AKC will not allow them to enforce their Codes or to make them more stringent.
I know a fair number of people in Europe who breed dogs and they have told me essentially the same thing you have said about restrictions on which dogs they can breed. When I was watching the Westminster I was surprised to learn that there are only 2 breeds that are allowed to be housed out of doors in Finland. I also know people who have purchased GSD's and other breeds from Europe and ended up with sick dogs or dogs with titles that ran from the helper.
We will still be debating this 5 years from now I think LOL.
by Silbersee on 21 February 2012 - 14:02
Blitzen,
you certainly have valid points. The big difference in Germany is that breed organizations issue registration papers but they have to abide by the rules of the umbrella organization, the VDH. To compare this model with the breeding practices in the U.S. would mean that the AKC had to hand registration duties down to the individual breed clubs. Of course, it will never happen as the AKC will loose most of their revenue. Therefore, nothing will ever change here.
The only thing what could be viable (for AKC as well) is to invent a so-called two or more class registration system for litters. "Simple" registration for litters with no health certifications, show ratings, and performance titles of the parents, "advanced" registration for breed specific health certifications, "elite" for all the requiremens of "advanced" plus performance titles etc. etc. This is a somewhat crude idea but I am sure it could be refined. As a breeder, I would not even mind to pay higher registration fees for that. In turn, I would expect the AKC to teach awareness and educate the public of the different requirements and what it could or will do for the betterment of the individual breeds.
Currently, all the AKC does is to bombard breeders with emails bullying them into releasing the information on the individual puppy owners, so they in turn can be solicited into individually registering their puppies. I am not happy with the AKC, especially since I have a big dispute over an issue right now. The puppy in question was sold with limited registration last summer and now I have been informed by an automatically generated email from AKC that the dog was just now registered in full under a new name. Go figure that! The AKC in my opinion does not have any welfare in mind, only how to generate enough income.
Chris
by Blitzen on 22 February 2012 - 15:02
http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2012/02/westminster-rewards-cruelty.html
I just saw this, if it's already been posted, forgive.
I just saw this, if it's already been posted, forgive.
by oregontnt2007 on 24 February 2012 - 16:02
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