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by demeras on 06 April 2011 - 01:04
Simple answer to a simple question. Black and Red came to be because we humans bred for it. That is how we make every thing better remember? Preservation of the breed and all that. Type SET. People breed for what they like...and Whah Lah...there it is. My first GSD was a German working line dog and she had some Canto/Quanto in her pedigree. She was Balck and Silver. Here Ya go Rin Tin Tin looking. (that one kills me) OK so backthen she was considered a very nice dog. Try and do anything with a Black and silver dog today. I am not talking white...Back then GSD were Black/taan/cream and Black and Silver. The show People all but got rid of the Black and Silver dogs making them lessor dogs because of their color. So go figure. You didn't see black then...rarely sable...Go figure...Human intervention!!!!
by Silbersee on 06 April 2011 - 01:04
demeras,
I beg to differ. Sable is the original color! Black and Reds resulted in selective breedings, black was "accidental" due to black recessives. When you look at the history of Sieger and VA, you will find black dogs in there. It was not unusual back then. Of course, it did not happen anymore after the Martin era.
I keep reminiscing about what Peter Messler had said after he took Timo vom Berrekasten into the VA-group: Give me a nice black dog and I will put it up, too. May he rest in peace!
I beg to differ. Sable is the original color! Black and Reds resulted in selective breedings, black was "accidental" due to black recessives. When you look at the history of Sieger and VA, you will find black dogs in there. It was not unusual back then. Of course, it did not happen anymore after the Martin era.
I keep reminiscing about what Peter Messler had said after he took Timo vom Berrekasten into the VA-group: Give me a nice black dog and I will put it up, too. May he rest in peace!
by demeras on 06 April 2011 - 04:04
My Bad...I was not talking Original...Only the influence on what people want today. You do not have to beg to differ...You can have a difference of opinion with me any time with out begging. I said nothing about "original color" only what was around way back then when I was a small child. And how color is also trendy. We see more Blacks and more Sables because people are breeding them...and like them....that was my point. And when something takes off in the Dog world...well nuff said......And I think I said the same thing you just corrected me for. Selective breedings...ie...humans bred for it. And I said it before I will say it again...YOu didn't see many sables back then. You saw mostly saddled dogs. Black as I said was rare. I said nothing about THE ORIGINAL COLOR...... just look at any dog magazine 20 years or so old.
by Abby Normal on 06 April 2011 - 07:04
Hi Silbersee
Yes, may he rest in peace. I wish this attitude prevailed today. Nothing I like better than a good black dog.
I find myself drawing away from showline more and more in recent years.
Yes, may he rest in peace. I wish this attitude prevailed today. Nothing I like better than a good black dog.
I find myself drawing away from showline more and more in recent years.
by gimme10mins on 06 April 2011 - 14:04
Great discussion. I too find myself shying away from the showline dogs, as solid black and red sables have always been favorite colors. But its amazing to me so many people see this bottlenecking but so few are willing to try and incorporate change. I loved the breeding silbersee did with her solid black female and Arko!! I would have killed for a puppy? I see that Kirschental has done some show working cross and I think Arlett as well. Why is this not widely explored. If more kennels did it I'm sure we would start getting more solid black dogs with the showline structure show enthusiasts want. I think we would add so much back into both the showline and workinglines if we became more open to the crossing of lines. But I guess thats a horse thats been beaten senseless.
Thanks for a great talk!!
Thanks for a great talk!!
by Abby Normal on 07 April 2011 - 19:04
Possibly one of the things I miss these days is the 'variety'. There used to be bi-colours, sables, blacks, saddles all doing well simply according to how good they were. Some kennels produced a 'look' about their lines that you could often recognise. Now S/L could all just be tipped out of the same mould.
There are some breeders beginning to explore more diverse breedings, inc S/LXW/L. I often think that the Sieger Show has worked to the detriment of the S/L, as it seems to have created a desire to have V or VA's littering the pedigree. That seems to have taken the place of complementary breeding. I much preferred some of the far lower ranked dogs at last year's Sieger. It would be nice to see some more imaginitive breeding taking place. Problem is that breeders have to be prepared to sacrifice any placings because of the blk/red bias, and also the opportunity of getting into the big money.
I will be interested to see the progeny of the W/LXS/L as they mature. Certainly there should be some variety in colour and structure! Personally I would like to see the current trend of overangulation and backline in the S/L somewhat modified too by the introduction of W/L blood.
There are some breeders beginning to explore more diverse breedings, inc S/LXW/L. I often think that the Sieger Show has worked to the detriment of the S/L, as it seems to have created a desire to have V or VA's littering the pedigree. That seems to have taken the place of complementary breeding. I much preferred some of the far lower ranked dogs at last year's Sieger. It would be nice to see some more imaginitive breeding taking place. Problem is that breeders have to be prepared to sacrifice any placings because of the blk/red bias, and also the opportunity of getting into the big money.
I will be interested to see the progeny of the W/LXS/L as they mature. Certainly there should be some variety in colour and structure! Personally I would like to see the current trend of overangulation and backline in the S/L somewhat modified too by the introduction of W/L blood.
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