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by Bhaugh on 06 July 2010 - 14:07
Oh maybe I should have clarified my ocd. The drive to work far exceeds anything else and imo can make them a kind of ocd. Some of the working dogs Ive met were not good pets and I dont usually recommend the breed for that reason.
by Doberdoodle on 06 July 2010 - 17:07
Not anymore than I would recommend a family get a Malinois as a house pet. Worse than a BC some of them are, plus they live to bite. :-)
by Goose on 06 July 2010 - 17:07
The worst thing that ever happend to the BC breed is the AKC recognition 10 some years ago.
If you want a Border Collie, stay away from showlines. Plain and simple. They are almost a totally different breed.
Check this out....http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=15117
Great place for anyone into Border Collies.
A well bred, well raised pup from proven working lines (not agility, flyball, frisbee etc) is what I would look for.
May take some time to find and it will have all the wonderful things that a BC brings to the table.
It does take a special type of person to enjoy a Border Collie. I pray to never be without one during my lifetime!
One of the things that to me is so cool about this breed is that color, coat, ear set, size - nothing matters....if the dog can work is all that counts. That is what makes a Border Collie.
If you want a Border Collie, stay away from showlines. Plain and simple. They are almost a totally different breed.
Check this out....http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=15117
Great place for anyone into Border Collies.
A well bred, well raised pup from proven working lines (not agility, flyball, frisbee etc) is what I would look for.
May take some time to find and it will have all the wonderful things that a BC brings to the table.
It does take a special type of person to enjoy a Border Collie. I pray to never be without one during my lifetime!
One of the things that to me is so cool about this breed is that color, coat, ear set, size - nothing matters....if the dog can work is all that counts. That is what makes a Border Collie.
by Doberdoodle on 06 July 2010 - 18:07
Thanks Goose, that's why I asked, I only know a little bit about BC's breeding and bloodlines. So I should try to find one that is from actual herding dogs?
One kennel I was impressed by is Wildfire BC's, http://wildfirebc.com/ Are these show lines? They seem to be high drive and work for ob and agility though, I don't know...... what do ya think? Even better they are near Chicago so the dog could be seen in person, I am wary of anyone buying a dog without meeting it, or seeing the parents if its a puppy.
One kennel I was impressed by is Wildfire BC's, http://wildfirebc.com/ Are these show lines? They seem to be high drive and work for ob and agility though, I don't know...... what do ya think? Even better they are near Chicago so the dog could be seen in person, I am wary of anyone buying a dog without meeting it, or seeing the parents if its a puppy.
by NoCurs on 06 July 2010 - 18:07
Full brother/sister breedings can work out very well, and some of the best dogs have come from this type of intense inbreeding. Again, you only get what you put in... so, if you have something you like, and want more of it, inbreed. If you are "scared" of what you have, or might have in the genes, then don't.
The quickest way to find out what IS in the genes if this kind of tight breeding. BUT! you have to have the discipline and true love of the breed necessary to cull. While I happen to think culling is something that should be practiced by many more breeders (think of all the nervy, crappy dogs out there) some don't have the necessary mental toughness and resolution to do so.
Inbreeding is one of those things people have a strong reaction too without usually knowing anything about it... most wild animals are intensely inbred, as are most livestock animals.
Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there. Personally, I don't think anyone who doesn't have sheep should own a border collie. (shrugs)
The quickest way to find out what IS in the genes if this kind of tight breeding. BUT! you have to have the discipline and true love of the breed necessary to cull. While I happen to think culling is something that should be practiced by many more breeders (think of all the nervy, crappy dogs out there) some don't have the necessary mental toughness and resolution to do so.
Inbreeding is one of those things people have a strong reaction too without usually knowing anything about it... most wild animals are intensely inbred, as are most livestock animals.
Anyway, just wanted to throw that out there. Personally, I don't think anyone who doesn't have sheep should own a border collie. (shrugs)
by Goose on 06 July 2010 - 18:07
You are welcome.
No, I personally would not look at those pups. But that is me. Too much showlines.
I actually herd with my dogs (novice level) and there is few things that will give me as much pleasure as watching a open trial dog do its job. Even better, seeing one work 100's of sheep is something that will make you want to try to preserve the breed as what is is. Totally rocks! Having said that, check out the link and run some searches on the board for trials. Maybe your friend can watch a few trials. Make some contacts. Meet some of the true working breeders. Many of them don't breed a lot. It may take some time to find the right pup. But a lot of the working breeders will tell you that despite their best efforts, all litters have pups in them that do not full fill the big dreams of making a jam up herding dog. Many of those pups will make great high drive companions for pretty much any venue that anyone may choose.
My current dogs are eager and keen workers with plenty of power (for me anyway) that are just about the easiest dogs to live with one could ever find.
No, I personally would not look at those pups. But that is me. Too much showlines.
I actually herd with my dogs (novice level) and there is few things that will give me as much pleasure as watching a open trial dog do its job. Even better, seeing one work 100's of sheep is something that will make you want to try to preserve the breed as what is is. Totally rocks! Having said that, check out the link and run some searches on the board for trials. Maybe your friend can watch a few trials. Make some contacts. Meet some of the true working breeders. Many of them don't breed a lot. It may take some time to find the right pup. But a lot of the working breeders will tell you that despite their best efforts, all litters have pups in them that do not full fill the big dreams of making a jam up herding dog. Many of those pups will make great high drive companions for pretty much any venue that anyone may choose.
My current dogs are eager and keen workers with plenty of power (for me anyway) that are just about the easiest dogs to live with one could ever find.
by starrchar on 06 July 2010 - 22:07
It is interesting hearing the opinions from everyone here. I would have a BC in a heartbeat based on my personal experience with them. I think my son and daughter-in-law's BC is 100% working lines based on his structure and coat. My daughter-in-law would love to get involved in herding. Does anyone know of any place in S. Florida where she can go to get involved?
by Goose on 07 July 2010 - 02:07
This is a great resource for anything, anyone and all you ever want to or not want to know about Border Collies...
Border Collie Boards
Border Collie Boards
by Goose on 07 July 2010 - 02:07
Make that www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php
by Doberdoodle on 07 July 2010 - 15:07
NoCurs, how does a breeder go about culling-- is there a certain age when it's to be decided, or just at a point where it becomes apparent to you which pups should be culled? I'm very interested in genetics and breeding.
I am guessing you disagree with breeders adopting out puppies with defects like deafness and other impairments, blind or deformed pups, etc. The Dalmatian Club of America agreed any deaf puppies should be culled, and not adopted out, even on a s/n clause. I feel breeders should be accontable for what they produce. But it got a lot of people upset! What really ticks me off is when people get offended by a spay/abort procedure. This woman calls me upset her dog was preg, I think 3 weeks it was, wanted advice on what to do with accidental pups, and I said you should get her spayed immediately before its too late, she ripped my head off, she "doesn't believe in 'abortion' " and can't believe I would say something so rude.
As someone with breeding experience, do you think people (clients, pet owners in general) under-estimate genetics influence on personality (temperament) and behavior? I think they tend to believe "it's all how you raise them", when I think it's a bit more nature than nurture, especially when it comes to fear. I advocate tons of socializing, but I would like to see a study done with a control group to actually measure the effects of socialization. Because I have seen dogs who were never socialized who were completely well-adjusted and not fearful. And I've seen dogs who were socialized a ton and worked with by owners, who still are bound by their genetics to be reactive, defensive, and fearful. But then I think if people ONLY purchased from reputable breeders and got the most stable quality dogs, maybe there wouldn't be so many dog trainers. LOL, or maybe it would just be easier.
ANyway, The BC is to be for obedience, agility, and advanced tricks. Other breeds would be considered as long as they were larger sized, good work ethic, mentally tough, and somewhat high drive. Just looking into it at this point.
I am guessing you disagree with breeders adopting out puppies with defects like deafness and other impairments, blind or deformed pups, etc. The Dalmatian Club of America agreed any deaf puppies should be culled, and not adopted out, even on a s/n clause. I feel breeders should be accontable for what they produce. But it got a lot of people upset! What really ticks me off is when people get offended by a spay/abort procedure. This woman calls me upset her dog was preg, I think 3 weeks it was, wanted advice on what to do with accidental pups, and I said you should get her spayed immediately before its too late, she ripped my head off, she "doesn't believe in 'abortion' " and can't believe I would say something so rude.
As someone with breeding experience, do you think people (clients, pet owners in general) under-estimate genetics influence on personality (temperament) and behavior? I think they tend to believe "it's all how you raise them", when I think it's a bit more nature than nurture, especially when it comes to fear. I advocate tons of socializing, but I would like to see a study done with a control group to actually measure the effects of socialization. Because I have seen dogs who were never socialized who were completely well-adjusted and not fearful. And I've seen dogs who were socialized a ton and worked with by owners, who still are bound by their genetics to be reactive, defensive, and fearful. But then I think if people ONLY purchased from reputable breeders and got the most stable quality dogs, maybe there wouldn't be so many dog trainers. LOL, or maybe it would just be easier.
ANyway, The BC is to be for obedience, agility, and advanced tricks. Other breeds would be considered as long as they were larger sized, good work ethic, mentally tough, and somewhat high drive. Just looking into it at this point.
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