color genetics - Page 5

HAHAHAHA....looks like we posted at the same time Daryle.

any others? I will look into Galant - looks like he carries bi or black recessive to me - beautiful dog.

molly

     I know, I'm the LAST ONE anyone  is going to listen to, BUT, IF WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HANDS ON, proof in the pudding, Here I GO, I know it, seen it, lived it...
    titles, work, play ...whatever, 'the colors read, as they display..'.and this has been my Observations in 20 years of German Shepherds.I have EVERY COLOR German Shepherd, working and showlines.
    My sister and I have two sable sisters,(full).Mine is a very heavy heavy long coat, Jean's is very short coat. BOTH females have the toe marks, mine much more pronounced, but my sisters dog still has them.
    My girl puts out solid blacks ,EVERY litter, Jeanne's dog, HAS NEVER, put out a solid black, even when being bred to a solid black, that is totally the same line I breed my female to.
     She will get Sables and black and tans. I will get Sables and Solid Blacks.My dog carries the black gene, hers does NOT!!!!!(her dog HAS THE BLACK TOE MARKINGS!!!!)
     I have a friend that has Shepherds that also SWEARS if they have the toe markings, they carry for black. That is soooo NOT TRUE.
    Sorry , I'm NOT A KNOW IT ALL regarding German Shepherds, BUT, I DO KNOW WHAT I HAVE SEEN, and I do know enough!!!!
     
     THE MARKS ON THE TOE< DOES NOT MEAN THE DOG WILL PRODUCE SOLID BLACKS...I'm sticking my neck out here, Don't matter what a book says...Live AND LEARN!!!!

Molly
Here is what Taunya from Eurosport K9 said.....Galant is owened by them....
"He is totally dominant for sable. No matter what color he is bred to, he only has sable.
Taunya"


Here is the link to the offspring of Galant. On the link it even shows some of the females he was bred too. Some are SOLID BLACKS, SABLES AND BI COLORS......but all of the pups sired by him are sables.
www.eurosportk9.com/galant_pups.asp

Molly and Darryl, You are both knowledgable about the German Shepherd...nobody is infallible. If I really wanted to confirm want you two are disagreeing about I would get in touch with either Joseph or Taunya of Eurosport or Jiri Novotny of Jinopo Kennels. Both of these breeders have oodles more experience than either of you (BREEDING EXPERIENCE) in seeing what is produced in terms of dogs carrying sables, blacks, and Bi-colors. Many many breedings, many more examples, and many many more years experience in breeding these types of dogs. I like both of you but breeders like the ones I mentioned have bred hundreds of litters with these combinations and I think their take on this would probably be the most accurate.  

I have definately learned something here - Galant is the first confirmed sable/sable I have seen that is "black sable" with toe markings.  Another 'black sable' that comes to mind that did not carry black or bicolor was Alk v Osterburg Quell - he carried black/tan, and he did not have distinct black toe marks/tarheels.  I still believe  distinct toe marks/tarheels on a sable dog indicates black or bicolor recessive.  In all but one case (LOLOLOLOLOL) - but really Galant confirms what I had wondered for a while - not having Czech or DDR-only lines in my program - that this could very well indicate a melanistic gene or gene "tag" like bicolor is - in sables (!!!!) very interesting.  If a bicolor is a melanistic gene or "tag" on black/tan - or a black/tan with bicolor gene - or however someone wants to describe bicolor gene - why can't that happen with sables?  A sable with melanistic gene or gene "tag" would be a black sable like Galant - carrying the black sable gene without needing black recessive to get it.  Cool!

I have bred black sable dogs to black sable dogs and produced black sable dogs (as well as dark sable and solid black) - but parents all  had black recessive.  So I had wondered if the puppies with lighter pigment (all had black toe marks/tarheels that could have come from black recessive as both parents had it) could have been sable/sable with "black sable melanistic" gene instead of black.  So they would have been sable/sable.  Impossible to know for sure with my litters because both parents carried black, and puppies in question had not been bred.  Now I know that could be possible.  Very good addition to my knowledge of color genetics, thank you.

Here are examples of the litter I am talking about - both parents black sable with black recessive.  All puppies either black sable, or dark sable with black feet, or solid black.



This female from the same breeding (blacksable/black X same) - not black sable and no distinct toe marks, so I think she got two sable genes, no "melanistic gene" for black sable just simply sable/sable.


this male is littermate to the above female - black sable with black foot markings - so sable/black? or sable/sable with melanistic gene?  don't know, never bred and never will be. 


molly

Which then brings us to another matter we've disagreed on in the past; your made-up definition of a gene "tag". (I'm not sure I want to get into this, now)

If your concept of the melanistic tag were to be true, then by your definition of it, there would be the possibility of black&tan progeny able to be produced from two bicolor parents, or a bicolor parent with a sable/black parent.  Can you present an example?  It would also allow the possibility of four phentype coat patterns to be produced in a single litter, given the parents particular genotype, instead of the recognized maximum of three when the bicolor is considered a variant of the agouti allele.

I'm not going to go so far as to cry BS in this instance, because both ideas could be possibly wrong.  But I would warn you to refrain from misinforming the unsuspecting with your hunches, by stating them as if they were fact.

In the transcription process, there are such things as protiens which bind to dna sequences and can be replicated hereditarily, or very closely linked loci on the dna strand which tend to pass together hereditarily.  But these processes would only refute the idea that bicolor is an expression of the agouti locus, and in no way that I can tell be used as support to your theory of gene "tags".

So anyway, if you can provide examples as described above, you might be closer to proving your imaginative theory.

My Boi Von Himmel Kamm is homozygous and all of the puppies he's produced over the last 7 years are sables like him.  He has been bred to black/tan, black/red, bi colored black/red, all black and sable females.  All puppies are sables. He has faded toe marks and tarheels.

His link on pdb:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/507393.html