Look GARD, it's a real dog!!! - Page 13

Yes, there is, Nine out of ten Dogs when training and learning the game are allowed to bite the sleeve after Barking in the hide the helper slips the sleeve and the handler runs round with the Dog if it is on a line of course if not he allows the dog to carry the sleeve and then calls the dog to him to LOS the sleeve,
He will then start again Mostly over here they start behind the Blind or Hide call it what you will then once the dog is barking they go to the hide and the dog is let ,loose with a line on about three yards behind the hide but at so the dog will run to the helper who taps his hand on the hide to attract the dog some one then at the front of the hide will pick up the line and check the dog if he attempts to go for the sleeve
In a Competition the Dog does not bite the Sleeve it Barks and Guards or if you want to put it another way it Barks and Holds the helper in the hide
The Handler then is called in and he in turn calls the dog to heel, that bit is plain
The Dog in question was a learner and yes it was right he bites the sleeve after he does a strong bark sequense, But as soon as the Dog has the sleeve the helper should slip the sleeve and the dog will as above run around with it, this builds up confidence in the Dog
However the Dog is not supposed to rip in at the helper, but even then the Dog bit the Sleeve albeit in a low postition
ALL the helper had to do was to slip the sleeve and there would have been no problems at all, Both the Dog and Helper were inexperinced and so was the Handler the dog should have been on the line the second time Why they took it off was plain srupid and only they know why
Steve1

Steve:

                  I agree with you, but I don,t believe I would (if I were giving the bite) of slipped the sleeve from my left arm the bite was (in my opinion) unsetteled very shallow and momentary slipping the sleeve in my opinion might of got something else bit. Slipping the sleeve on a solid grip is a reward, My opinion is this dog is not sure enough to handle the stress in the blind initaily (my opinion) is that even if the man had not moved his right arm there was going to be a dirty bite somewhere.   

Bob
I am talking in general Working with inexperinced Dogs but i know what you are saying and as i said above agreeing with you the Dog had the sleeve at the bottom not a good full bite or Grip, But then what does a Helper do Certainly not hit the dog with an unprotected arm or hand that is plain silly,  If he forced the Dog out of the hide by pushing against the sleeve which was not a full grip anyway then the dog may have bit him elsewhere so the best option was to slip the sleeve the dog would still have hold of it and probably have turned away with it,
Had the Handler had the Dog on the Line the helper could slip the sleeve and the handler pull the dog away at the same time but it was not on the line for some unknown reason
I wonder what has happened regards the Dog and Handler since that video was made it would be interesting to know
Steve1

More of a question then an opinion on my part here, but this is my take on this.Feel free to correct me if I'm way off base. It looks to me like decoy and handler made mistakes here,thats evident by the outcome. Is it possible that this dog was worked in defense or fight drive a little to strong or prematurely in his training.It looks to me like he needed a lot more training in prey work and proper targeting and a full calm grip.Like Bob I don't know that slipping the sleeve might not have made matters worse.It seemed to me the dog was ready for a fight, regardless,and ready to bite anything presented to him regardless of equipment. I may be way off key here, but I don't see it as a nerve issue with the dog, the dog was 100% commited to the fight regardless. It just seems that maybe some links in the chain of training were skipped or at least not trained to a point where the dog was reliable, I think the dog reacted the way he was trained if that makes any sense to anyone. I think the dog simply needs to be retrained in a manner that makes him more reliable and confortable in this type of work,in my opinion trained slower and made more clear to the dog what he is expected to do.Another thing as a novice that I'm curious about is if a dog is trained on a sleeve and a bite suit and in different  protection venues would this not be confusing to the dog as to what he is allowed to bite?

That is the whole point of this thread The First time the Dog went to the Helper it controlled its self well it barked as it should have done and when the helper presented the sleeve to him he took it, so the dog knew what it was supposed to do for in the first sequence it made no attempt to get a sneaky  bite at the sleeve until it was given the chance to
We can only guess what was in the mind of the handler when she released the dog the second time, for it did not hesitate, But what could the handler really do but to slip the sleeve and let the dog have it,  for it was plain stupid to use his unprotected hand
But we can only guess and we will never know, Never the less i wonder what has happened since
Steve1

Steve, On this video shkola-orlova.ru/view/129f6e0e28ec482723e4fd690a78433c.xhtml about 2 minutes in shows the 1st, 2nd and 4th entry into the blind for bark and hold. On these 3 entries the handler has various  control of the leash the dog did okay. Because the collar did it's job. The collar checked the dog enough to get it somewhat correct. Glock needed just a slight catch to check him get him to stop and bark. On the last entry which was after the bite, you can see the dog was going straight in for another bite again when it hit the end of leash and checked it stopped and started barking. If you watch Glock's video biting a passive helper in water. What was his reward for running in and biting? Fight with the helper.

 I bet you if the handler would have let the leash go before the check on the first rep Glock would have went straight in for a bite. Same thing with the second entry. Video of the third entry rep where Alex was bitten.
shkola-orlova.ru/view/55525f3e6598296f26635a45ff8925b0.xhtml. The girl doesn't have any control of the leash it's on the ground. The dog didn't get corrected so it went straight in. This dog in my opinion didn't know the exercise very well. It was jacked up and wanted to bite. The handler and helper are to blame. Glock was not ready to go in the blind without  someone controlling the dog. There are other videos of Glock biting a passive decoy in training days or couple weeks before the bite on the schutzhund field. Was the dog confused by the cross training I don't know but it easily could have been.

PS. I'm a little jealous you can drive to the WUSV. Tell Pete all of us that have a Zidane pup are rooting for him. Never  got to meet Pete when he lived in Alabama and handled Jabina Falco for my friend Larry.

I have not seen the first video until this moment but that is not what we are commenting on anyway we are talking about the Video in Question, and the Dog should have gone into a Bark and Hold but it dived in like a express Train. What gets me is none of you people realize what the DOG was supposed to do, you completely ignore that fact, and that dog at that particular time could not contain its nerves say what you will it was not in control of its self and THAT is Nerves I do not intend changing my mind on what i see no more than you are
As for the other Video you put up when the Dog is in a down The Bloody helper is Chewing Gum a right amateur at the helper game and the handler of the Dog did not have a clue what to do in that situation she never had the sense to get hold of the line and pull the dog off. Over all all three subjects need a lot of work more on the human side than the dog
Steve1

I will be going to Germany to the WUSV early tomorrow again, If i see Peter Kovaces i will pass your message on to him, He is a very nice Guy to speak to 'laid back' just the sort to make a good Dog handler and he is

Steve, I agree with your opinion on the handler and heper's work. The only difference is I don't think the dog knew what was being asked of it. Much less knowing how to do it correctly. One thing I do know about the dog it has been taught to go straight in and bite a passive helper. There are videos and photos on that website showing it's training from a puppy. I think Phil was right when he said steps were being jumped in training. I think it's unfair to the dog to just judge him just from the original video. I think the second video shows this dog hasn't been trained properly. If the dog hasn't been trained properly you can't expect the dog to perform a perfect bark and hold. If, the videos shows anything this dog to do sport needs someone to train it properly. I believe if this dog spent sometime in Belgium with Rinus it would do a bark and guard to your liking. Maybe you should invite her over to train.

ps Did you see the dog from Mexico get 100 in c or the dog from Israel 99 a - 97c? I've look but haven't found video of it yet. As an American probably shouldn't say it but I hope Ronny/Como win. I had a Eros son that was amazing pup. He passed way to soon. I think it going to be tough but Ronny has proven time and again he's up to it. Como has to be near perfect in protection or the dog from Israel has to do screw up in obedience.

Again i go on the video seen at the time not on seeing other videos after the event,
 I have seen no videos of it as a Puppy so have no idea as to what has gone on I also said the Dog showed nerves on that excesise and it did my way of thinking and i stand by that, who is to say who is right or wrong unless you see the dog working in real life no one will know for certain
Personally i am not bothered  if you Guys think i know little about the Schutzund Sport and handling dogs and you Guys know it all which has all but been said, that again is something which will never be proven
As for anyone needing to teach me about the sport or how to handle a dog from this Forum  i do not think they are up to the task for if they are then 55 years of training dogs of different breeds in Obed and Some Sheep herding etc before i moved over here was wasted,  the Guys over here in Belgium must be rubbish and again i know differently, and some are proving it now in Germany so if you Guys are better than them as well as your own countrymen performing in Germany well please come over and teach us for it is some of these i am working with But then why are you not in Germany contesting the world with your own Dogs
Steve1
There are many Dogs and Handlers in contention for the honour of getting top spot, but the team performnce is the most important than the individual win nice to get both but a big ask, Como should go well tomorrow it will only just be getting light when he competes so i will be gone from home around 4.30 in the morning to get there to see him but i expect he will give a good account of himself and still young at only 3 years old