Why Do People Breed GSD's W No Titles And KkLs???? - Page 3

Titles are not what is needed to better the breed there are other real factors that are needed.lots of dogs gett title and have been getting titles and yet i still hear on this messageboard people constantly bitching about how this breed is become so bad.one of the reason is specially in the united states is that most of the so called working line breeders who been breeding for long time still have majority of thier breeding stock imported,and not from their own kennel.that means these breeders are not breeding towards develo[ping their own blood lines.this is because they all are breeding to sell fucking puppies and that is all.when the breeders start keeping what they breed and start raising their own dogs and work with them and see what they are breeding and really understand what they are breeding and you can not do this if your litter is already sold before it hits the ground.let me tell you of a breeder i know who has been breading for 30 years or so and breed mostly own stock and sell dogs to police departments in state and canada.she has never title a dog yet i can tell you that being produced by this breeder are just as good as any good breeder anywhere if not better.so if you have never had any experience with anything other then what you know then that is all you know and nothing else.so you are limited in your thinking. have a nice one.

Why?
Many reasons.
There is a difference between a reason and an excuse.
I agree with some of what Bob had to say about it for one thing.
Its not all there is to a dog.
I know of at least one famous kennel in Germany who sold puppies from a bitch with no Koerung, no pink papers.
The why is because people do not all see things the same way.
There is also a big difference in the countries people live in.
AKC means only that the dog was bred to another dog of the same breed and even thats iffy sometimes.
I have a lot of respect for the SV, and for people who title their dogs.
But there's still more to consider.
Why?
Mainly here in this country because they can.
Either way money still changes hands.

Moons.

NIKOS, As always there exceptions to every statement. You said

"people that deal with k9s dont 'have the time to title or koer their dogs... they just want a dog that can work; most schutzhund dogs can't work the streets"

I'd point to Mike Diehl as an exception. As a K9 officer he has time to title his dogs even his steet dogs. Not only that but he wins with them as well.

I would imagine its all in a days work for him wouldn't you?

I haven't as yet met the man, altho he's only three hours away.
I hope to meet him one day.

When it comes right down to it people are going to do what they want. No matter who disagrees with it or not.

So if you want a real dog that is stable, balanced in drives and can do the work, then you deal with breeders and competitors that are known for producing/using these types of dogs. Then you are most likely to get the type of dog you want. Provided you know what it is you are looking at :)

I would rather see a dog working than see his titles. Titles have place on paper, I don't belive in papers I believe in what I can see, touch, smell, and not what I can read. And if you don't agree than is safe to assume that you belive in everything you read on the internet as well. lol How many times I have looked for a new dog and most of the breeders the only thing they had is their paper titles when asked if it would be possible to see the dog work they always came out with some kind of bs excuse. Once again I don't belive in paper. When comes to KKLS I belive every dog should be able to get one no matter of his titles. I seen some SCH dogs that the only place they belong and know is the working field or the show ring what good is their title than, rutine dose not test every aspect of the dog? Whan the dog is not capable to perform in every day situation, what good is that dog for?

Hey Mike Dehil is an exception to the rule also he wants to do it .but the main reason and the only reason i have a lot of respect for Mike,is Stormfronts Brawnsen,when you have a dog like Brawnsen and you are commited like Mike you can do just about anything.but keep in mind not every one is walking around with a dog like Brawnsen and the other dog iknow of that is a police dog and earning shutzhund titles is also a son of  the Great Stormfronts Brawnsen.so it can be done but takes a certain type of talent and a team.just thought i mention this just cause someone brought up Mike's name.Drives of a dog are the only thing taht is important,cause let's face it with out those drives no dog is gonna go out there and earn a shutzhund title. have a nice one.

Nia,

Thank you for your kind words. Regarding the question, I have to agree with Nia and not just because of her remarks but I have meet some woman who still trial and they are close to 80 years old and you can just tell it is not easy walking so many paces. And if you are thinking, wow Jason must have money haha not even heck my van is a 93 and the tires on my wheelchair are almost bald :-). To ad to what Nia said about excuses, what very few people know is my club is small in Schutzhund club terms, in the past three years I have trained 3 different helpers just to watch them walk away do to work or personal issues, heck our main helper is a 18 girl who has been doing this since she was 8 and kicks but. She has helped me score above 90 in two different trials. My point is, if you don’t have a club, start one. If you don’t have a helper find one and send him/her to some seminars, cant afford to travel to a trial hold a trial at the club you just started with the helper you just helped train.

           Do i think schutzhund is the means to an end for bad health, temperament and drive, not in the least but do I think its a system that needs to be left in place and built on, yes. I truly believe we will never have a unified breed, meaning everybody breeding for a same type of temperament, structure and drive. Reason being, is every breeder has his and her own goals and ideas of what the breed should be and breeds for that particular "type".From my understand Walter Martin was a good example of this, during his life he bred many many of litter (sorry don’t know the exact number), why? Because he knew that in order to breed the “type” he had in mind for the breed, whether that be wrong or right, he had to breed enough dogs to build a gene pool to choose from in order to produce his “type”. Now if he could of lived for 200 years maybe he would not of had to have so many litters but I feel he recognized that he had to breed X number of litters to have X number of dogs to breed to that produced his “type” in his life span.

Now I am sure their are many who breed for the mighty dollar, but I am referring to the breeders who breed to improve the breed. With all that said, I feel titling, Koer'ing and structure ratings are one way to keep all the different breeders somewhat on the same path. If you are an American Shepherd Breeder (meaning you breed for the akc "type") please put your pitch fork down for a moment, but a good example of breeding for type is the AKC shepherd. If you have been in the GSD breed for even a short time you start recognizing a AKC bred gsd right off the bat because of their "type", long body, leggy, the ear set is different, the pasterns are different and the over all look is different. The same can be said about the German show dogs, but my point is for years there’s dog have been breed for a "type" and to get that "type" you must have guidelines and rules in order to obtain that. Is any system perfect? not in the least, heck our founding fathers (in the united states) put into place checks and balances because even they knew that thier thoughts and ideas of how the country should be ran was going to have flaws and issues. So I do feel Schutzhund titleing, Koer'ing and so on are good guidelines for keeping the breed on-track, because without guild lines we are like a blood hound without the ability to smell looking for a rabbit.

Now if I totally lost and confused you, just try living in my head :-)

Jason
www.prodogz.com