Why Do People Breed GSD's W No Titles And KkLs???? - Page 15

Rik -

If only my breeder had told me that my pups parents "titles" weren't worth the paper they were written on, what a serene, uncomplicated life I could be living.





You are either trying your best to be difficult or you need remedial reading comprehension.   The Sire (a VA) of my puppy was from a Top Well-Known Kennel  - Stud Service.   The Breeder was talking about one of his own Males, which WAS NOT the Sire of my puppy.    Got it ???   Understand ?? 

Held,

I know two things:  Zedane is Zidane and Bread is Bred.  Otherwise it looks like your the man.

Have a nice one!

Isnt a bit comical?
I would say: if you want a dog, breed it ,do the right thing. If somebody wants to buy a dog from untiteled parent, more power to them. Everybody thinks they have the cream of crop in their kennel or dog run. Of cource dog owners are bias.
I know of a breeder and he things that he got the champ in his house. When we trained together that dog was still pissing himself at the sight of anything new..
I know dogs that will never have titles and I would breed to them.  I would breed to them because the owners had no chance to put titles on them. (they live way too far from training, traveling 12 hours to get a Shutz title one way is just not that easy). KKl is another thing! I live in sticks and I was able to attend 3 trials in 3 years... that is bad. In EU I had my 3 year old ZVV3 titled in 4 mos.. I had plenty clubs to go to.
I look at the dog. I even test a dog before I breed to him. It is great if it has all the titles but sometimes it is pretty hard for people to get them.
I know dogs that have all the training in the world but did not out because of a weak helper on the trial day (could not lock up...) This dog is fenomenal and the owner drowe 450 miles back where he came from without a title on a dog that doesnt hasitate climb 6 ft latter to get a bite!
If somebody tells me that they think Shutz is stupid, sissy sport.. that is just a sorry excuse.. prove me that you can put that easy title on your funky looking GSD wanna be you bred to 130 pund wonder...

Ok let us draw a picture for you guys.say i went to belgium and bought him as a pupp and did not title him and then bread him would he produce good progney or not?.have a nice one.

I don't know if this is true, or if this is judge's preference, but I remember reading that a dog won't be awarded a VA rating unless the parents are Koer'd.  I'm guessing that is maybe judge's preference?  I have also heard that certain judges will not give VA ratings to dogs they have not seen once or twice before, and/or dogs whose progeny they have not seen.  I believe in the USA a dog cannot go VA unless it has already shown in a WDA show that year? (new rule?)

Now these are just show titles, but still, it relevant to the question.  In some aspects, yes, parents with no titles/show ratings will limit the success of their progeny.

Question: Which came first??

The chicken??

Or the egg???

the answer:  YES!!!

Same thing with a Dog... The titles are the PROOF of the pedigre, and the abilities or conformation.  While they don't MAKE the dog of a specific quality.. they do PROVE the quality

(at least to some degree cause we all know there are titles that don't mean anything except that the owner was well connected with someone in a position to grant the title)

You know I have been reading all this and there's one thing I fail to see................these people that call themselves breeders and those that are breeders....................never talk about the future.  Everything is right now--working ability--through show conformation....................I would be interested in who has a real breeding program and what their goals are?

I agree that people should title and kkl their dogs before breeding them.

IMO, It provides breeders with a method to evaluate temperament, character, trainability, willingness and mental and physical soundness and to select and use only the highest quality dogs for breeding programs!

If, lets just say for example people breed dogs with no titles, no kkls, and they do not evaluate their dogs how does it better the breed? What difference are you making? How are you eliminating faults? and how are you making them better? If anything you're taken away a lot from them, in my opinion.

Some breeders should be lucky they live in the United states because they're more lenient with breeding because a lot of breeders who do it for the money and profit wouldn't last in Germany because there is more laws and they're more strict and enforce it.

If you live in Germany, you may not breed without aquiring Schutzhund titles, a breed survey, a conformation rating, hip (spine and elbow) xrays and a certificate of endurance which I agree should be done. Not all dogs are worthy of breeding.

This is just my opinion and what I think of breeding dogs without titles and everything else.

So no one who belives in titles could answer my question,i am disappointed even though we have breeders here who been breeding for 20,30 years and talk shit on this board but can not answer a simple question.this just leads me to belive what i knew all along. have a nice one.

Why Do People Breed GSD's W No Titles And KkLs????
by Held on 17 June 2009 - 18:06 Held

Posts: 329
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 06:49 pm
Let me ask you geniopuses who can not figure out if the dog is good or not unless it has titles.If Famouse Zedane did not have titles you think he would have produced shitty progeney?.have a nice one.
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Obviously Zidanes ability to pass on working ability is not derived from whether or not he is titled.  I think people did not answer your question only because they must have thought it was rhetorical. 

Now Held, I respectfully have a question for you:

If Zidane had not proved his working ability through trials and scores who the hell would have known about him?  Exactly how many Zidane progeny would be running around if breedings were based on only the owner's assertions of his working ability?   A few local  people might have  seen Zidane work so they might have taken  their untitled, unproven bitches to him (because going on your assumptions titles mean nothing).  Of course, since none of these people or dogs would be active in schutzhund,  it becomes even more problematic because they have nothing to base their opinions on & then that progeny is bred to more unproven dogs.   How would anyone have known of this dog and why in the world would someone have wanted to breed to him just because his owner thought he was a really great dog?   Every pet breeder in the world will tell you how great their dog is, but if there is no standard, no testing, what then?

Yes we all know there are midnight trials and unearned titles, but to say titles are worthless because there are some shitty ones make no sense whatsoever.  Why throw the baby out with the bath water?   You do your homework, look at the score books, take note  of who the judges were, were all the trials on home field,  what was the calibre of the trials where the dog attained his titles, has the dog been trialed multiple times to schHIII under various judges?    You also watch the dog work, in person if you can, and in videos.  You talk to people whom you consider to be more knowledgeable than yourself, and whom you trust, for their thoughts on particular breedings  you are considering.  It's called doing your homework.  No one said titles are the end all and the be all - it's simply a starting point, a minimum requirement.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule BUT we are talking averages here, and on average I will take my chance with a dog who is out of proven dogs rather than pin my hopes on a guess, a wing and a prayer.  I will also always support  those breeders who are going the extra mile to title and breed survey their dogs, along with breeding superior working dogs.   If I were into show lines the same thing would apply.

Hey Sueincc first i want to thank you for answering a simple question.the only reason the question was asked,toprove to people that when it comes to breeding titles do not determine the outcome plain and simple.but titles do have their place in this,yes as i have said that titles are good for showcasing a dogs talent and the talent of a handler etc.

but this is totally different thing than what the original question is asking.As i have said before i do not have any problems with the titles.it is good that people want to do something with their dogs great ,good for you!.this is exactly where titles end for me. have a nice one.