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by Kinolog on 20 February 2009 - 07:02
Another interesting resource for information on service/assistance dog laws is the ADA Coalition.
Some types of service dogs get certified through the organization that trains them or sanctions them as they go through their training programs/standards.
For people who have them, the assumption is that the dog is a legitimate service dog so that one needs not show the medical/psychological necessity of having one anymore than someone would to prove the necessity for a wheelchair - although some places demand letters from doctors (e.g. HUD) for dogs to gain the right to reside in HUD-funded housing.
There was a big class action suit filed against Walmart - and they lost. But they still harrass people who come in with service dogs and will often refuse entrance over a bogus complaint by a phobic or screwed-up customer that wants to create a scene and be a star.
A lot of foreigners who are ignorant of our laws (such as from countries where dogs are considered "unclean") will refuse to recognize a service dog.
If you are being deprived of your rights and kept out of a place that the law states you have a right to be in, it is a class C misdemeanor for them to do so. You could call the police to settle the matter, even if giving out a handout on laws regarding service dogs (which ADAC provides for free) does not move them.
To put it plainly, you can train your own service dog - teach it OB, socialize it, teach it what it needs to do for you, and grow together as partners. It does not require certification or a prescription from a doctor - although a letter from an MD stating its necessity can get you through tight spots.
The law puts the burden on the other party to accept the necessity for the dog as it would violate HIPPA regulations for them to demand any explanation of why the dog is needed - usually what medical conditions necessitate a dog's assistance, or put you on the spot in some cases to ;prove your need for it - but this is not the rule.
Some types of service dogs get certified through the organization that trains them or sanctions them as they go through their training programs/standards.
For people who have them, the assumption is that the dog is a legitimate service dog so that one needs not show the medical/psychological necessity of having one anymore than someone would to prove the necessity for a wheelchair - although some places demand letters from doctors (e.g. HUD) for dogs to gain the right to reside in HUD-funded housing.
There was a big class action suit filed against Walmart - and they lost. But they still harrass people who come in with service dogs and will often refuse entrance over a bogus complaint by a phobic or screwed-up customer that wants to create a scene and be a star.
A lot of foreigners who are ignorant of our laws (such as from countries where dogs are considered "unclean") will refuse to recognize a service dog.
If you are being deprived of your rights and kept out of a place that the law states you have a right to be in, it is a class C misdemeanor for them to do so. You could call the police to settle the matter, even if giving out a handout on laws regarding service dogs (which ADAC provides for free) does not move them.
To put it plainly, you can train your own service dog - teach it OB, socialize it, teach it what it needs to do for you, and grow together as partners. It does not require certification or a prescription from a doctor - although a letter from an MD stating its necessity can get you through tight spots.
The law puts the burden on the other party to accept the necessity for the dog as it would violate HIPPA regulations for them to demand any explanation of why the dog is needed - usually what medical conditions necessitate a dog's assistance, or put you on the spot in some cases to ;prove your need for it - but this is not the rule.
by TIG on 20 February 2009 - 11:02
Kinolog,
Please note that your third paragraph and the last paragraph are incorrect. There is no assumption that the dog is a legitmate service dog (often they are not). The law does NOT put the burden on the other party to accept the dog. The ADA specifically grants the premise owner the right to ask what tasks the dog is trained for which is consistent with the requirement of task training wh/ I harped upon above. They can not ask your disability but they can ask what tasks the dog has been trained for. This reality is this will sometimes reveal your disability for example a blind or low vision person who has to say he guides me which would reveal their blindness. To say a dog is trained to alert to seizures presents a similiar problem wh/ some avert by saying he is trained to alert to a medical condition.
But the onus is on the disabled individual to present information that the dog is task trained when asked. The law is very specific as to that.
You also state in the last paragraph that it would violate HIPPA regulations. Wrong again. HIPPA has nothing to do with access issues. The HIPPA privacy rule - " provides federal protections for personal health information held by covered entities and gives patients an array of rights with respect to that information" ONLY applies to covered entities. Covered entities are Health plans, Health care providers and Health care clearinghouses. HIPPA is about protecting your medical records and nothing more. See http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/index.html for more info if needed.
There is also a small mis-statement when you say "If you are being deprived of your rights and kept out of a place that the law states you have a right to be in, it is a class C misdemeanor for them to do so." That depends. Only if that particular state has made it so as Ca has done. Usually state criminal penalties relate to interference with or injury to the SD not to access issues. The ADA allows enforcement thru 2 civil law mechanisms a private suit or a DOJ suit . From the ada.gov site "There is no provision for State or local civil rights agencies to directly enforce title III of the ADA. They can, however, enforce State or local laws that incorporate the standards of the ADA, or they can set up alternative dispute resolution mechanisms "
Finally you say "You could call the police to settle the matter...". The reality is more often than not the police have no clue about access laws and want no part of enforcing anything even when presented with a printed version of the law citing chap and verse. They try to pass it off as a civil issue and sometimes go so far as to threaten the person demanding access with a disturbing the peace charge. So know that you can end up with two battles on your hands not just one.
Please note that your third paragraph and the last paragraph are incorrect. There is no assumption that the dog is a legitmate service dog (often they are not). The law does NOT put the burden on the other party to accept the dog. The ADA specifically grants the premise owner the right to ask what tasks the dog is trained for which is consistent with the requirement of task training wh/ I harped upon above. They can not ask your disability but they can ask what tasks the dog has been trained for. This reality is this will sometimes reveal your disability for example a blind or low vision person who has to say he guides me which would reveal their blindness. To say a dog is trained to alert to seizures presents a similiar problem wh/ some avert by saying he is trained to alert to a medical condition.
But the onus is on the disabled individual to present information that the dog is task trained when asked. The law is very specific as to that.
You also state in the last paragraph that it would violate HIPPA regulations. Wrong again. HIPPA has nothing to do with access issues. The HIPPA privacy rule - " provides federal protections for personal health information held by covered entities and gives patients an array of rights with respect to that information" ONLY applies to covered entities. Covered entities are Health plans, Health care providers and Health care clearinghouses. HIPPA is about protecting your medical records and nothing more. See http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/index.html for more info if needed.
There is also a small mis-statement when you say "If you are being deprived of your rights and kept out of a place that the law states you have a right to be in, it is a class C misdemeanor for them to do so." That depends. Only if that particular state has made it so as Ca has done. Usually state criminal penalties relate to interference with or injury to the SD not to access issues. The ADA allows enforcement thru 2 civil law mechanisms a private suit or a DOJ suit . From the ada.gov site "There is no provision for State or local civil rights agencies to directly enforce title III of the ADA. They can, however, enforce State or local laws that incorporate the standards of the ADA, or they can set up alternative dispute resolution mechanisms "
Finally you say "You could call the police to settle the matter...". The reality is more often than not the police have no clue about access laws and want no part of enforcing anything even when presented with a printed version of the law citing chap and verse. They try to pass it off as a civil issue and sometimes go so far as to threaten the person demanding access with a disturbing the peace charge. So know that you can end up with two battles on your hands not just one.
by beetree on 20 February 2009 - 17:02
www.northstardogs.com/autism.shtml
Just curious, check out this link for service dogs for children on the autism spectrum.
Just curious, check out this link for service dogs for children on the autism spectrum.
by tiffae89 on 20 February 2009 - 18:02
Some severe cases of PTSD will cause frequent syncope spells. There is also a condition called Nerocardiogenic Syncope that can be directly related to MR.
so does that mean if this person requested a Service dog that they would not get one? As the case stated above it can be hard to do much of anything passing out 8-10 times a day....
Just asking...
so does that mean if this person requested a Service dog that they would not get one? As the case stated above it can be hard to do much of anything passing out 8-10 times a day....
Just asking...
by justcurious on 20 February 2009 - 18:02
TIG - i think we are talking about different things. my 2nd post was clearing up why i originally posted the link - i just thought reading the needs from an autistic persons pov was interesting. your take as you've stated is looking at it from a trainer/legal pov - so very different perspectives. the article contains no training advice nor any reference, that i can remember, to legal issues.
i did not see where she said she was a professional trainer; the only service i saw offered was a support group, which was free. anyway i'm not defending her, mostly because i see no problem with what she is doing, but also because you and i are making different points - yours legal, mine personal needs.
clearly the legality of service dogs is important and i am not disputing that, i was just never discussing it. but i do think it's important to acknowledge that autistic people are emotinally disabled, so for this disability a service dog would need to mitigate emotional overload. you can call that a glorified companion but i highly doubt an autistic person or their caretakers would agree. - jmo.
i did not see where she said she was a professional trainer; the only service i saw offered was a support group, which was free. anyway i'm not defending her, mostly because i see no problem with what she is doing, but also because you and i are making different points - yours legal, mine personal needs.
clearly the legality of service dogs is important and i am not disputing that, i was just never discussing it. but i do think it's important to acknowledge that autistic people are emotinally disabled, so for this disability a service dog would need to mitigate emotional overload. you can call that a glorified companion but i highly doubt an autistic person or their caretakers would agree. - jmo.
by justcurious on 20 February 2009 - 18:02
beetree - thanks for the link. it's interesting how different the approach is from traditional service dog training.
by Uber Land on 20 February 2009 - 20:02
I think this brings up another question:
are the needs of a physically disabled person greater than the needs of an emotionally disabled person?
you can see a disability when someone is physically disabled, but it is harder with someone who is emotionally disabled.
I guess this hits home for me a little bit. I have had an illness my entire life, I suffer intense pain all over my body, I get very fatigued, sometimes it is hard for me to concentrate and I forget words. my hands shake very bad, I can stutter when I am nervous and having a "flare up". I get "brain fog". the past year or 2, my hands have gotten so bad I have trouble cooking at times, I drop things constantly, Its hard for me to pick things up. I've had severe dibilitating migraines for years. I have panic attacks now, social anxiety.
I don't have parkinsons. I've seen every type of specialist imaginable and have had every test under the sun ran on me excluding a spinal tap. My parents spent 100's of thousands on trying to diagnose me with Drs. I have no diagnosis, no treatment and am gradually getting worse every year. The symptoms are very close to MS. I am just 28 years old. this stuff started when I was 2.
my dogs know when I am getting sick and having a flare up. my year old black female follows me around and is always there if I need help getting up. I feel in a few years I will need help from a service dog, but I also know I won't qualify for a service animal. so it is up to me to start training one myself for my specific needs. do I have the same rights as someone who has been diagnosed and is deemed disabled? do I have the right to take my dog in public with me, even if it is just to help my confidence and get me out of my home?
are the needs of a physically disabled person greater than the needs of an emotionally disabled person?
you can see a disability when someone is physically disabled, but it is harder with someone who is emotionally disabled.
I guess this hits home for me a little bit. I have had an illness my entire life, I suffer intense pain all over my body, I get very fatigued, sometimes it is hard for me to concentrate and I forget words. my hands shake very bad, I can stutter when I am nervous and having a "flare up". I get "brain fog". the past year or 2, my hands have gotten so bad I have trouble cooking at times, I drop things constantly, Its hard for me to pick things up. I've had severe dibilitating migraines for years. I have panic attacks now, social anxiety.
I don't have parkinsons. I've seen every type of specialist imaginable and have had every test under the sun ran on me excluding a spinal tap. My parents spent 100's of thousands on trying to diagnose me with Drs. I have no diagnosis, no treatment and am gradually getting worse every year. The symptoms are very close to MS. I am just 28 years old. this stuff started when I was 2.
my dogs know when I am getting sick and having a flare up. my year old black female follows me around and is always there if I need help getting up. I feel in a few years I will need help from a service dog, but I also know I won't qualify for a service animal. so it is up to me to start training one myself for my specific needs. do I have the same rights as someone who has been diagnosed and is deemed disabled? do I have the right to take my dog in public with me, even if it is just to help my confidence and get me out of my home?
by TIG on 21 February 2009 - 00:02
Justcurious, you are the one that is mistaken. We are NOT talking about different things. The hard cruel reality is that assistant dogs and their use and their owner's access rights are defined by the law. You can not talk about assistance dogs without talking about that. The law specifically requires task training to mitigate the disability. An assistance dog or service dog can NOT merely be what someone wishes or hopes, it must fit within the legal definition. That's the point you don't seem to get.
Re "but i do think it's important to acknowledge that autistic people are emotinally disabled, so for this disability a service dog would need to mitigate emotional overload. you can call that a glorified companion but i highly doubt an autistic person or their caretakers would agree." I did not say it wasn't important. What I said was if the dog is mitigating emotional overload by it's mere presence ( as the link you provided claims) that is not a task trained dog and ergo is not a service dog and ergo the owner has no public access rights with that animal. I think you will agree that all pet owners will claim " just being around my dog makes me feel good". That is why we have pets.
Uber, I am sorry to hear of your health issues. As someone who deals with pain, fatigue and other medical issues on a daily basis I certainly sympathize. I strongly suggest you take the time to read the IAADP links I provided. They will answer your questions.
The short answer to this question "do I have the right to take my dog in public with me, even if it is just to help my confidence and get me out of my home" is no. Please read my posts re task training above.
The longer answer however is to suggest you analyze the needs of your disability and think about what tasks a trained service dog could help you with. First and foremost that I see is retrieving dropped items. You could teach her tasks to help you out when your hands don't function like turning on the lights, opening doors, retrieving things from the refrigerator etc. You say she helps you get up when you are having difficulties in a flare. Put that on command and it becomes a trained task. Some dogs have been trained to work with people who have reflex dystrophy (intense pain that can be triggered by a slight touch). The dog is trained so that on command it will position itself between the partner and a source that may trigger the reflex. Again please take the time to read the information the IAADP website offers both about the minimum standards for training an assistance dog and for examples of what is and is not considered to be a trained task which mitigates a disability. I wish you luck.
Re "but i do think it's important to acknowledge that autistic people are emotinally disabled, so for this disability a service dog would need to mitigate emotional overload. you can call that a glorified companion but i highly doubt an autistic person or their caretakers would agree." I did not say it wasn't important. What I said was if the dog is mitigating emotional overload by it's mere presence ( as the link you provided claims) that is not a task trained dog and ergo is not a service dog and ergo the owner has no public access rights with that animal. I think you will agree that all pet owners will claim " just being around my dog makes me feel good". That is why we have pets.
Uber, I am sorry to hear of your health issues. As someone who deals with pain, fatigue and other medical issues on a daily basis I certainly sympathize. I strongly suggest you take the time to read the IAADP links I provided. They will answer your questions.
The short answer to this question "do I have the right to take my dog in public with me, even if it is just to help my confidence and get me out of my home" is no. Please read my posts re task training above.
The longer answer however is to suggest you analyze the needs of your disability and think about what tasks a trained service dog could help you with. First and foremost that I see is retrieving dropped items. You could teach her tasks to help you out when your hands don't function like turning on the lights, opening doors, retrieving things from the refrigerator etc. You say she helps you get up when you are having difficulties in a flare. Put that on command and it becomes a trained task. Some dogs have been trained to work with people who have reflex dystrophy (intense pain that can be triggered by a slight touch). The dog is trained so that on command it will position itself between the partner and a source that may trigger the reflex. Again please take the time to read the information the IAADP website offers both about the minimum standards for training an assistance dog and for examples of what is and is not considered to be a trained task which mitigates a disability. I wish you luck.
by justcurious on 21 February 2009 - 00:02
i hear what you are saying but see it differently.
by ZVZW on 21 February 2009 - 19:02
If you all ever have questions about this type of things a really nice man to contact is Rick. While he is Handicapped and is a Quad he has quite alot of knowledge about this. I met him when I helped another disability trainer and learned some under her. It was interesting to see how his dog was trained and what for. He runs this site
http://www.texasaccess.com
As well he a has a really good group via Yahoo.. Acess Texas
http://www.texasaccess.com
As well he a has a really good group via Yahoo.. Acess Texas
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