BBC Dropping Crufts?; tv documentary tonight - Page 2

Please excuse my ignorance on working lines,but could someone explain to me what is meant by"work".I know what i consider "work",but would love to hear other opinions.I also agree some breeds have changed over the years,look at the chow with it's bashed face and breathing problems.I think the gsd has improved immensely over the years,the quality here in the uk is IMO the best it's been in years.Ihave to say i have seen on this database working lines that are also excellent,and if i still bred would gladly use these dogs.I do believe there is blindness in both camps.Why change the breed standard? It would not make any difference as it would still be interpreted in sooooo many different ways. liz.

I found the program to be very interested and whilst being totally biased towards the damage done to breeds and hardly recognising the work that some are doing to improve things, it certainly was a eye opener and showed how narrow minded some breeders/clubs can be.

I think it also showed how much change man has brought in many breeds and the knock on effect of the selective breeding has brought.  I think it also showed the changes brought about in the GSD breed, which IMHO is on the brink of going wrong yet again.  Hind angulation in the show dogs is getting poor and in some of the DDR the lack of chest is also worrying.  So no line is perfect and I'm not even going to touch onto the british show lines as they are even worse!

Not only is construction/angulation an issue so is the size that the dogs are getting too, I'm sick of seeing bitches looking like dogs and puppies that are already over size at 9months old.  I recently heard of one gsd who at 1 was 50kg and 4 inches oversize, unfortunately the effects of oversize and overangulation resulted in the vet advising he be put to sleep as he was constantly in pain.  If people cant heed warning signs like this then the breed will be in serious trouble in only a few years.

Bancroft,

The breed is supposed to be versatile, and the dog that meets the standard should be able to do a variety of jobs.  Very large size is not an advantage for police or guard work.  The dog must be of a suitable size to still be agile and able to jump and turn quickly.  Also, a very large dog has a better chance of not staying sound into old age, definitely a consideration if you are the one who needs the dog's services and are paying for them. 

The roach-backed dog has a harder time with jumping because the spine is less flexible.  The American showline dogs have a reaching side-gait, but are so long they cannot turn efficiently, and because of the overangulation of the rear legs, do not have the strength of muscles and ligaments to be very agile.  Many fanciers say that it's not important as the dogs were supposed to patrol at a trot most of the day, however, I will argue that dogs do not always herd in straight lines and on flat ground.  The dog needs to be able to control the livestock regardless of the terrain.  Likewise, it does a police officer no good if his dog can't scramble over obstacles while chasing the bad guys. 

I've watched many GSDs at agility trials, and some of the larger and/or over-angulated dogs have to heave themselves over the jumps.  Whether you like the sport of agility or not, it's a good test of the dog's general physical ability and basic trainability. 

Dash2

Having looked forward to the BBC program with somewhat baited breath, pen at the ready to send off a damming letter to the program producers, I have to say having watched it I have to agree with almost all of its content with regard to the appalling problems many breeds have.

Surely the responsibility lays  firstly with the KC & secondly the Judges.The kennel club do the least possible to ensure that only healthy dogs are bred from, as has already been written the obvious reason for this GROSS lack of care on their part is they know they will loose revenue,  with the ease of computorised records, how easy it would be for the KC to impose STRICT guidelines on all dogs registered with them with regard to known inherited diseases, they could so easliy say that as from a certain date ONLY litter s where BOTH parents are either tested free, or are within breed guidelines as being acceptable, will  a litter registration be allowed.Perhaps it would make the less desirable breeders think twice about breeding so many litters, yes alot would inevetably go on & just not register them, but it would be a start in the right direction.

I have myself just re homed to a pet home , without papers a beautifully german bred dog of excellant type whose hip score was only 5 above the breed standard.I KNOW for a FACT that ,many TOP breeders in our breed would not have hesitated to breed from this animal you only have to look at numerous pedigrees to find cricket scores occuring & happily being bred from.I have always set myself targets & limits with what I will use in my breeding program, sadly alot of breeders in all breeds NEED governing by a higher authority, as they won't govern themselves, hence the KC MUST step in.

I thought the GSD's shown on this program highlighted the current unsoundness problems that are rife in our breed today,  & I feel its a disgrace on both judges & breeders alike that this sort of unsoundness is considered desirable.In almost any other type of animal such looseness in movement would be laughed out of the showring & most certainly NOT bred from, I think on the whole the comments were spot on  , movement of the type shown is NOT correct & is a severe unsoundness, how can breeders with any conscience intentionally breed this type of fault  & whats even  worse see it as being desireable ? I agree that we do not want to go back to the type of GSD of 30 years ago( badly propertioned, soft backed etc), but at least they were able to put one foot in front of the other without looking , if viewed from behind ,as if they were knitting a jumper !

Makes me realise why I show very rarely.....I am NOT prepared to breed dogs with such  ,grossly over angulated weak hindquarters, if it means not showing so be it.

ok, ok ok , well, watched the very beginning and felt so upset watching the Boxer havea fit, so could not watch it anymore...BUT, Phil my partner  had to watch it as I couldn't see any dogs in distress, and I heard German Shepherd come on and I ran in the lounge and saw a not so nice German Shepherd come on in stance then Andrew Connolly come on at Crufts..Understand what the commentator said about the Hocks, but not all dogs are like that (especially our dogs in our Kennel)  and also as we know German Shepherds are terriable on that sort of small ring, I gather that was Manchester Show where Carol Marsden was Judging in January, please correct if I am wrong.  Also I can't believe Terry Hannan diddn't exactly stick up for our side of the German Shepherd, maybe he was in a dilema because he was judging Cruft's, but I am sure he won't be judging Cruft's again, so why couldn't Terry Hannan say a bit more as he know's not the best dogs are shown at a show like that and these shows are not what German Shpeherd's are about, even though Zamp was there and he is 1 of the best dogs in the world today, unless of course it was editied or political or maybe it's all the same thing... Talk about moving forward with the German Shepherd Dog.....A hard day as we had people look at our puppies and they mentioned the Documentry tonight and my sisiter left a message on my phone about the Documentry as I feel we look so silly after seeing that,   we English again in the German shepherd world, just look panse.....

Kerry

The K.C. has tonight demonstrated their lack of concern about the progressive problems in different breeds! The chairman and his side kick were made to look stupid by the interviewer who constantly tripped them up. When pressed about bringing in policy to control breeding from genetic distorted breeds, the answer was, " If we try to control breeders", They will leave us!! and still breed. This is all about loss of revenue!!  And the owner of the King Charles who went best in show, blatently lied about, It's genetic problem, the amount of studs it had. When you have people like this in all breeds and the K.C. with its head up it's A--- is there any hope for the breeds concerned.

Yes the ring was small but that doesnt affect how a dog stands or looks.  True it cant gait to its true potential, but a dog should look sound standing, and walking.  The big show dogs of today and the current trend for the excessive frog leg appearance at the back is a negative issue for the breed.

The judges and a few (maybe a lot more) breeders are to blame for that beepy because if they keep allowing un-sound animals to win. Do you really think the owners care about it's un-soundness if it's getting a red rosette?

The whole UK show stinks of double standards:

Example:

A wellknown breeder owns a GSD that has beautiful angulation, rich red/black pigmentation but stands east/west in the front  or who's hocks could knit a jumper when it walks and wins 99 times out of 100 because the judges will over look these faults because of who the wellknown breeder is. Now winning means anything and everything to him/her.

A novice breeder owns a dog with slightly less agulation, less rich pigmentation but is correct in front and is straight in the hocks and  wins 1 time in 100. Winning doesn't mean much at this stage because he/she just enjoys there dog and the shows.

Now lets say the that 1 time the novice breeder wins it beats the wellknown breeders dog because an honest judge penalises the wellknown breeders dogs faults, the wellknown breeder blows a gasket and rips up the judge, the novice breeder and his/her dog for it's less rich pigment and less angulation and whatever else they think is wrong with it.

Novice breeder is taken aback with this tirade and says "Hang on just a minute, the judge placed my dog because it  conformed more to the standard and had less faults than yours".

Wellknown breeder is almost about to explode and rants "What would know about anything, your a nobody in this breed and don't know what your talking about". Remember he/she can criticise your dog but your not allowed to do the same in return.

Yes all that over being beaten once in a 100 times by a dog with less faults than his/hers.

The funny thing was the other 99 times the wellknown breeder won the novice breeder congratulated him and never once commented on the wellknown breeders dogs faults.

It's amazing how many hypocrits there are in the GSD Show scene.

it was a very one sided show.

it didnt interview enough breeders, i know some breeders who do all sorts of tests before breeding etc.

it just seemed to me like a lot of posh people who are so stuck up there own arses that they are ignorant to the world around them. the head of the KC should be  arrested on animal cruelty charges if he can be bothered to bring in rules to stop bad breeders and passing on of hereditary  diseases