Let's talk structure - Page 4

4pack, in another post you mentioned that the larger dog is more cumbersome, and while that may "generally be true", I wanted to express that it is not "the rule".  I have a female that is near-to-oversized that is faster and more agile than most gsd's of any size.

IMO the concern about an oversized dog is not so much how fast or how agile that dog is, it is how long can the dog keep up the pace. Big dogs do not generally have the endurance of their smaller peers. On the other side of the coin, is the too small dog that will not have the strength needed to git er done tending sheep 24/7.

Good picture, nice dog.

Your right Daryl and I figured someone would call me on it. HA HA. There are some big Boyz and "girls" that can scoot. Zender is one of my favorites. You breed those beautiful big boned sturdy DDR and Czech dogs and that's kinda of status quo with them.

Say hi to your babysitter Boo and little Nickie for me.

I have to laugh!!! But you are correct Blitzen.A gsd with no feet is like a horse with no hooves....Then you look up at the total. Ground up!! In ref to the larger dogs or horses.A deep heart girth..lung capacity is good but if the total balance of the individual in working has to compensate.That is meaningless.When Secretariat..Northern Dancer and Hyperion ran the distance.They were laughed at because they were too short in height in comparison to their peers...given the time.But they had the "Will" and they were balanced in structure. Funny how people that breed horses try to reach back to get that balance.Same for Gsd's. Structure is structure based upon breeding..Period!The over breeding in the gsd with faulty structures just as with the horse has snow balled.Structure to me is to enjoy watching my gsd's run for great lengths/turn on a dime...trot on and never skipping a beat in movement.No aches no pains.The icing is that they have herding skills.."Will".

I have a big, heavy female who is fast, also. 26", about 80 pounds. She also has endurance, she would stay on a treadmill all day if I let her. She builds a lot of muscle mass when I actively condition her.  Jumps, walls, A-frames...no problem. Balancing work, like beams? Forget it.

Sam, I agree totally regarding the whole package and how it best compliments your bitch.

There are always exceptions to every rule and there will always be the occasional over-sized dog that will have the agility, athleticism, and endurance to do the job intended. However, they are are exceptions and breed standards are written to address the average dog  -  ours asks for a medium sized dog. Heart counts a lot toward a dog's accomplishments. I once bred and sold as  a pet a very cowhocked dog. Turned out he was a running fool, lived for nothing else, he never gave up. He made a lousy pet, but was great team sled dog and earned some performance titles.  That doesn't mean all cowhocked dogs are good workers  .

Schutzhund is not a team sport, consistent size is not nearly as important as it is if you were forming a team to run the Iditarod for example. Also we are talking Schutzhund and not tending.  These venues are quite different and each presents it's own set of physical challenges.  A dog of the correct size and structure needed to tend may not necessarily have the right size and structure to do Schutzhund and vice versa. According to what I've read and heard, the big dog is not wanted for a tending dog. The SV does a good  job discouraging  breeding the over-sized dog so too much size will probably never be the problem in this breed it is in others. Be glad since too much size has spoiled many working breeds and contributed to their overall decline from a working breed to a window dressing.

Oh, I'm not condoning oversize. My dog is large within the standard, but not oversize, she earned her KKL1.  That being said, I really like medium dogs.

KC, when you KKL your dogs before breeding them, that's a good indication to me that you intend to breed to the standard. I'd just hate to see working line breeders ignore size thinking it's not a big deal since they've owned one or two big dogs that are good workers. I assume most workingline breeders do not KKL their dogs or do they? If not, then they take themselves out of the SV approval loop leaving them with the descretion to breed whichever dogs they want.  Ignoring over-size might not be a good thing in the long run. It doesn't take very long to lose that preferred medium size after introducing a few large dogs into the gene pool.

I know I breed whichever dogs I want! Despite 4pack's comment, I don't breed for size, and think many active-working workingline breeders actually prefer mid-size. At 11 months old, this boy was 27" tall and 97lbs (44kg) and that's the ONLY reason I sold him. I don't KKL my dogs, either.

"Also we are talking Schutzhund and not tending. These venues are quite different and each presents it's own set of physical challenges. A dog of the correct size and structure needed to tend may not necessarily have the right size and structure to do Schutzhund and vice versa."

And that's why I hold less regard for the standard, though I somewhat attempt to adhere to it. I see what works in practice, and worry less about theory, or venues I don't particularly see a use for participating. If I wanted to tend sheep, I'd probably have a border collie for the work, maybe accompanied by a larger breed if the flock or collie warranted "protecting". But realistically, too few gsd's will ever make a living tending livestock, there are many other carreers for which the breed is more appropriate, IMO.