Let's talk structure - Page 3

One more thing I want: correct dentition. A GSD should have a scissors bite, that is, the canines should cross in a scissors fashion, not meet tip to tip. The lower jaw should not jut out past the top jaw. A slight overbite is still okay (the top jaw is a tad longer than the lower jaw by a millimeter or so) as long as a scissors bite is still there. 

And of course the males should have two testicles descended into the scrotum. The females should be correctly made so that the birthing process is not overly difficult. I know you can't tell about females in a show, but you should be able to by the bloodlines.

I see this thread isn't getting a lot of attention, whereas some others with heated comments are getting more. Too bad.

Gosh sam, you've saved me typing.... you've just described my ideal dog, well apart from the colour.  I prefer a dark sable but we won't fall out over aesthetics  I particularly like your take on movement.

 You are right Sam for the front assembly..it is pretty hard to get and if you get it..difficult to maintain.(not that much dogs have a good front and then you have the match it with your lines..not easy)

In America Showline..the front is usually much better than the hind leg (we have dragging feet and lock hocks). but t is improving and  lot of breeders are talking about it now..couple of years ago it seems like it was a taboo issue..now it is well discuss and breeders try to remove that from their lines. GETTING BETTER!

Lighter eyes on a lighter face is ok..but not those yellows eyes (by the way it is another really hard thing to remove out of your lines ) so better not have it in the begining..

Talking about matching parts freaks me out! There is a whole dog to breed and I can only imagine everyone hopping on the bandwagon to breed some AKC stud who has a "fab" front end but nobody talks about how he can work. There is just something very wrong with that. Also usually what people "think" or call is a great structure, isn't what's best out in the field. Anyone notice the show winners aren't the ones that can actually do the job efficiently, yet it is touted all over town that , such a gate and such angulation helps the dog work all day?

 I was talking about matching pedigree...not half dog LOL

Some dogs from  show lines lack working ability because they we're ONLY bred for their structure and nothing else..It is not the structure itself that makes them unable to work..it is between their 2 ears!!

A good stucture help you work all day..Herding for exemple is asking a dog to trot all day, NOT RUN OR JUMP..they need proper angulation and effortless gait to achieve that.

I have ASS and they can jump,run, and gait all day..no problem with that!

I'll have to disagree with you about the parts. I hear people all the time talking of breeding for coat pattern/color or head. Not just in American lines either. I have seen plenty of dogs that aren't physically sound enough to work, pups so wacked out they can't walk strait.

Sam- I figured teeth and testicles were kind of a given.

I was kind of hoping to see what people are willing to substitute. For example, I'd accept a shorter croup in a stud if I knew he would improve something more important to me, such as a correct front. (This is of course pending temperment and working titles, but we're trying to just talk anatomy here) I'd happily accept a less red dog if I knew he threw good pasterns and tight feet. So on, and so forth. I think in there really lies the difference between the followers of different lines.

 I would never substitute a correct front. Colour for me is secondary because it is very simple to get it back the next generation with a well pigmented dog.

I would rather breed a more angulated rear dog with a good croup.  dogs too square can't have proper croup.

I rather have a longer dog than a faulty gait..

Heads and back..I want it good and only good

Well KCzaja, it depends on what your bitch's strong and weak points are and where you are going with your line, doesn't it? A stud with a strong work ethic and a clear head but who lacks some rear angulation or who has a slightly steep croup might mix well with a bitch who has a weaker ethic but fabulous movement. Just a sidenote: Walter Martin thought you had to have a sharp dog in your lines every three or so generations to keep up the work ethic otherwise you get dogs like Karat's Yoker who is beautiful but failed his TSB.  This is why I think the German Koer system is superior to the American "breed whatever you want" way. Granted the Koer ratings are not always the complete story but

I wrote a message to you, KCzaja, and just lost it! Blast computers! I think I said something like it depends on where you are going with your lines. I really think you can't separate structure from the mental and emotional part of the dog - you get both and you can breed for biteworkand clearheadedness. If you have a beautiful female with sound movement and a weak work ethic, you might want a less than gorgeous male with a very strong work ethic and clear head. This is where I think the German Koer system is superior to the American "breed whatever you want" way. The SV koermeisters will recommend certain studs be bred only with bitches who complement them and they are not always shy about saying which lines are which.

I think it was Molly who said in another thread that Hill Farbenspiel improved working ability. A stud like Karat's Yoker would perhaps improve structure and color, but he did fail his TSB, IIRC, so you wouldn't want to use him for a bitch with a weak work ethic. It's not just structure you get...