SV to Reinstate Long Coats in 2010 - Page 3

"I am not yet middle aged, myself"  -  tish tish   not kind to include sly digs .  I'm a firm believer that we are only as old as we think we are.

++1936, during which time the long coat was determined to be undesireable due to being "greatly diminished in weatherproofing and utility".  The founder saw fit to change his mind by disallowing longcoats, and with some sense of reasoning behind ++ 

Sure..because he probably finally had one from his own breeding and then it was okay..p.THEN perhaps found there is no truth in saying the coat is diminished in weatherproofing. In fact I have seen some German Shepherds with better weather resistance in the coats then some of plain stock hair.

My preference is for stock hair, but I have always  felt it rediculous when the stock lonhairs that have been in the breed for so many generations were deemed faulty. It has no bearing on temperment and does not effect working ability or hinder..
BS

Debi

A dog with a long soft, coat would probalby not survive during a Germany winter without human intervention. Long soft coats soak up water and then freeze which can add up to 40 lbs to the total weight of the animal.  They will form ice balls and expose the skin to frost bite. Ice balls will form between the pads rendering the dog useless. A dog with a long, soft coat can freeze fast to the ground during the night and tear out a substantial portion of it's coat when he tries to rise in the morning.  In the summer these coats will collect dirt and burrs that will results in skin irritations and infections. If the plan is to preserve the GSD as a tending dog, then allowing dogs with long, soft coats to be eligible for breed surveys is self-defeating.

Unless your longocat is tending 24/7 during a German winter sleeping outside and not being groomed and trimmed, you are not comparing apples to apples by saying that you have a dog with a long coat that is weather resistant. Either your dog has a long, harsh coat with ample undercoat that repels the water or it is not challenged with tending 24/7 sleeping out of doors in all weather and never groomed to remove burrs and mats. Shepherds did not carry tack boxes or portable shelters for their dogs. They had to survive all on their own. A long coat is weather resistant only if the guardhairs are coarse and water resistant. Soft coats soak up water like sponges. I can only hope that if the SV does allow long hairs that they will require coarse, harsh guardhairs with an undercoat of adequate length and quality to protect the dog in all weather.

All excellent points, and TIG, thank you for the historical perspective. I think we all know what constitutes a true longcoat (without undercoat) and all agree that it is a breed/performance fault.

And we all know that the physical appearance and structure of our favourite dog underwent an evolution that was caused not by the written standard of the time; rather it was caused by the continued personal preferences of the judges of that era.

I think the real sticking point is when certain dogs have "borderline" coats, i.e., somewhere between plush and long and these dogs are judged against dogs with similar coats and suddenly a judges disregards one of the dogs because of its coat length. This is when one is left wondering why one dog passed and the other did not. Of course there can be other reasons as well, and hey, a decision must be made.

I think we all agree that the plush coat on a dog of correct structure makes for the appearance of a beautiful animal. But in the end, if the lock stock coat is allowed to return to the conformation ring, I do not think it has a ghost's chance of making it to the final classes. I think the borderline coats are a poor reason to fail a dog in the conformation ring, when all will look the other way if the dog has "a"3 hips and "a"3 elbows as long as he works and trots correctly. At least such serious faults are not allowed now in the VA class. I do not remember who said it here, but we have serious health issues with the breed, and by removing the long stock coat we do diminish the breed pool.

The long stock coat will be with us as long as there is a GSD unless we refuse to breed anything that carries the long stock coat gene. And of course that will not happen. The S.V. will bring about this change for one (1) reason-MONEY.

Regards,

Bob-O

we have serious health issues with the breed, and by removing the long stock coat we do diminish the breed pool

I considered that point myself, and since it seems a bit understated, wanted to emphasize  that they could offer a valuable alternative for genetic diversity.  That makes presence of working ability even more important so, can these dogs do the work?

I agree with the posts, we have other issues that are more important to deal with, health should be the priority. We need to quit designing the GSD . I for one would like to see them, they have gathered a large following, and a very loyal one at that..

Being a long coat has no bearing on a Dogs nerves or its ability to perfore as a working Dog

And regards Blitzens description of a dog with a long Coat Soft or otherwise not surviving outside in a German Winter i do not know what he is talking about

What is so different from a German Winter compared to Belgium., Holland, and Great Britain,

Belgium and Holland border Germany as he knows

I have .lived in Britain most of my life, I have lived in Belgium  now four years, I live only about 50 miles from the German border also the Dutch border, Visted Germany in the Winter many times, Its no different from where i live in Belgium about the same overall.

My Two Dogs, one long coat the other short coat live outside 24/7 and have done since they were eight weeks old

They have never shown any signs of being uncomfortable with the weather or conditions

And any talk of changing the breed or condeming Short or Long Hairs, then think of the Hips problems how do you think these come about,, not only hips but other dog problems

Through human interferance from the original wanting this bit changed that bit different

Meaning now the Show Lines Butts in G.S's  are almost touching the Ground,

so much for change, Its humans who bought on most of the present Dogs Problems  not only G S but in all breeds,

We now have dogs very nearly unable to breathe, some cannot hardly see. Human s tampering with the Breeding and genitices, no one can say different, all the changes in breeds have come about from Human intervention because they think it looks nice or better, In other words Humans like to play God where animals are concerned

Steve

It is no secret that I like longcoats.  I see no reason for them to be excluded from breeding, but is is still a breed fault and should be treated as such, just like any other construction fault such as short croup, weak ears etc and considered in proportion to how it affects the dog as a working dog. Obviously, it would be a real handicap in the show ring as it cannot be covered up by clever handling, but should still be considered as part of the whole dog, not automatically put behind the ones with correct coat irrespective of how good a dog is underneath.  I have had 2 of mine surveyed in UK (Percy Elliot) and one got Class 2 with the comment "this dog would easily be a Champion if he had a normal coat"  for Nyrvana Hotspur and the other, Greenveldt Jago in Nyrvana got Class 2 with the comment *Has sufficient qualities to be useful for breeding despite his long coat.  Were his coat normal he would have been graded Class 1"  Both came from litters where at least 5 generations of ancestors were all normal coated.

Margaret N-J.

And the good thing with LSC's or borderline coated...  THEY NEVER LOOK THIN... Still... it is a "fault " but should NOT BE BARRED from BREEDING... The ancestors of the GSD happened to have the same coat-type... We just tried to make it SHORT-PLUSH for easy maintenance and for work purposes...

Have a nice day... Marci

Long Coats or short coats makes no difference to the quality of a gogs performance in Schutzhund competitions

leastways not over here in Belgium, although there is less long coats that i have seen working compared to short coats, but the ones i have seen perform very well on par with the shortcoats but then we may be behind the times over here compared to ther countries

Regards the Show Dogs i know nothing about the showing side of Dogs,

But have seen a Double world Champion G.S Show Dog plus many other Top Females ofthe Showline side, so i cannot comment on what is what

Steve