HD-noch zugelassen - Page 2

You're not saying you should ignore the results of hip xrays, or justifying the breeding of dysplastics are you? I'm sure most of us know of dysplastics from clears and clears from dysplastics, but you really need to keep in mind the big picture and look to pedigree analysis as well as the current generation. Many times the status of the g-parents will be as influential on the hip status of the progeny as that of the parents. One really should think twice about using the only clear from an all dysplastic litter or consider removing from a breeding program the dog or bitch that produces an lot of dysplastics. It's not a perfect system for sure, but what else do we have currently?

Good information. Did you know that at one time OFA did issue a number to dogs with less than ideal hips? I don't recall the exact wording, but they were rated as "near normal" and got a number. They don't do that anymore obviously. I supposed that would have compared to the noch rating?

I can't say that, Dawnmarie. From my own experience with another working breed, the better the hips on the parents and g-parents, the better the chance of getting good hips on the puuppies. I also found that some clears are just going to produce more HD than others, they need to not be bred. One of my first litters, 9 puppies, produced 2 severely dysplastic puppies. I neutered the 2 I kept for breeding although their hips cleared OFA as did all except the 2 that were really bad. None from that litter were ever bred. I later discovered that the sire, OFA good out of OFA good parents had a dysplastic g-dam and several dysplastic littermates. I never used him again. However, I did breed the dam of this litter again, this time to her half brother, OFA clears for 4, 5 generations which was good for that day and age. This time a litter of 11, all xrayed, all cleared their xrays. I kept an OFA excellent bitch and linebred her to an OFA good sire wiht a strong history of normal hips, a litter of 7 and again no HD. I made sure all were xrayed, it was in my contract and I rebated the price of the xray. Some from that litter were bred and, to the best of my knowledge, none of them ever produced any HD and most of their progeny was xrayed, but not all. I'ts been over 30 years since I've produced a dog that didn't get an OFA number and only one of them was a fair, the rest goods and excellents. This is a breed with a very high incidence of HD, not GSD's, but larger and heavier. I don't know that the mode of inheritance varies from one breed to the other. I am pretty much convinced that frequent use of noch hips or the equivilent is not a good thing. I would never buy a puppy with a pedigree containing a lot of noch hips. IMO, that's asking for trouble. I see many pedigrees with 3,4,5 noch dogs in 5 generations, how can that be good?

So, I am assuming that none of you are buying aus Agrigento dogs from Herr Schweikert. He historically uses NZ rated dogs. And not to mention the difficulty factor of finding a "show" line without Jeck. The hip rating is in my opinion as a joke. It is to say the least a guideline but the credibility of the HD ratings is subject to the percentage of x-rays actually submitted. And (get this), I do agree with Dawnmarie, that I have seen MANY x-rays from puppies produced by good and excellent ("a" and "a2") parents that were severe. The SV ratings are less than credible because they cannot control "how many" progeny actually submit for recorded evaluation. These ratings are all used for marketing, no matter what you want to believe, it is what you are convinced to believe that wins your $$$.

I personally do not even believe that this Blitzen does Hips at all. Yet he verses an opinion he does not even qualify to do. If he is whom I feel he is he does very little in selling puppies from dogs that are not even pure German Bred. He has never imported a dog at all....Period. He reads alot and goes by books he had lots of time to read??? I am surprised he even knows of the OFA ratings. The OFA is more strict that the SV. I know for I import and have had hips redone that would not pass with the same rating. I have spayed or neutered more dogs due to the OFA ratings for I will not breed anything less than A Fast Normal.

So sorry Wildthing, Blitzen is a female who has never contacted you or any other broker to purchase a GSD. If you read what I wrote you will see that I said I do not breed GSD's, another working breed. While you feel it's important to discredit me, I really don't feel it's important for me to justify anything to you. Next time, get your facts straight before you make accusations against me or my ethics. Thanks.

ZEUS VOM FRIEDENSPARK IS ON THE DATABASE YOU WILL SEE- HD-noch zugelassen ON HIM BUT GO TO THE OFA DATABASE AND YOU WILL SEE OFA-GOOD HE WAS A DOG I HAD FOR A SHORT TIME NEVER SEEM TO HAVE ANY PROBLEM.GO FIGURE

That's interesting, a NZ and an OFA good. I hope this isn't as a boring to all as it has been to the wildthing, but here's another of my experience stories with OFA. Again NOT a GSD LOL. Anyway, 2 brothers from one of my litters, one in Utah, one in North Pole, Alaska (honestly, there really is such a place). Both xrayed the same week by 2 different vets, both vets said - dog will easily pass. OFA did not give either a number, both were rated as mildy dysplastic. Vets said, "no way, let's do them again" so they did and both got goods LOL. Not fairs, mind you, goods. Another go figure in the world of dogs and HD.

Genetics is the name of the game here. At best a dog carries 4-5 bad genes(any and all dogs). Some breeds carry 400-500 bad genes(worst case). At the time of conception, the genes from both parents manifest themselves and the puppies become possible carriers of those genes or actual "mistakes" occur in the puppies as a result of the "married genes"(for us poor hips, long hair, ect). Breeding to a VA1-V9 does not guarentee ANYTHING. The genes of both parents dictate the puppy. Breeding to a much lower V male might produce a more HEALTHY dog(hips, ect) depending on the genes of the parents and how they manifest themselves at conception. This is why Jeck Von Noricum was able to produce good hips in his progeny. Depending on who the female was, I can assure you some of Jeck's progeny had not so good hips. And TODAY those same genes are being carried by Jeck's progeny(and there are MANY). Making a gene chart of your kennel or club dogs that you mate, over time can predict which dogs to breed and for what desired results. Understanding genetics and how to manipulate them, is a better method than "eye balling" and speculating. On another note, 15 years or so ago, I x-rayed a dog and sent the results to the OFA. Her hips they purported, were so bad that they would not rate them PERIOD. That dog lived 14 years, ran around like a rabbit at full speed, never had any real arthritis to speak of, and died of kidney failure. That was the LAST time I ever used OFA. I am not saying that OFA is not reliable, just that my experience is I would never spend money again using OFA.

I thought I had typed a point and realized I had forgotten(getting old). The reason there is more line breeding than out breeding is that genetics can be controlled/monitored in line breeding if accurate charts/records are kept. With out breeding, God only knows what you will produce, because you have not had the opportunity to establish a baseline for what the "married genes" are going to produce.