KNPV Dogs in the United States - Page 4

The little I´ve seen from PSA some dogs target the outside of the arm, just like in SCH, if the dogs bite in the same area it would make no difference if it´s suit or sleeve, would it? Some also target inside on the lower arm, and some more like in KNPV the biseceps/shoulder area. But a dog with good prey and fightingdrive would be able to learn to target inside the arm also, if it´s a decent dog who just not see the sleeve as a big toy, or? I didn´t think the PSA dogs I´ve seen on videos was so special compared to the the better SCH-dogs, I guess you can choose what sport you want to do with a good dog, the biggest difference would be in the training. Some of the KNPV dogs aren´t that impressive either I think.

jennie I think you are focusing too much on the bite, there is much more difference in PSA than just the suit and where the dog targets.  What would the average Sch3 dog do if in the middle of the courage test, another decoy ran out on the field and threw a sack of aluminum cans at him? I'd say 1 run like hell off the field or 2 at best hit the wrong decoy. What about doing your OB routine with 3 decoys walking arond the field throwing things and shaking clatter sticks? A lot of dogs wont focus on the handler long enough to keep off a decoy in this situation. Even allot of top PSA dogs will forget to listen to their handler, not their own drives. It's difficult enough to find a solid dog with the guts to bust through anything but he also has to be obedient, stop in mid attack, make a jump, run through a spray of water, jump in the back of a pickup and attack a different static decoy, while another decoy is making threats and looking much more tempting. People like to say PSA dogs don't require as much control as Schutzhund, yea it doesn't appear as controled or pretty but that dog has to think, listen and do, not what he wants or what instinct would tell him to do. These docoys and judges are always trying to trip them up any way they can. Some senarios are so crazy you know the dogs have not had a chance to practice anything like them. I have seen horse trailers used with a decoy inside or a Gator vehicle the dog is supposed to protect from a decoy that will hand him treats and pet him all just to get behind the wheel and drive off with the dog. You will never see a Sch decoy try to fail a dog so when I see a Schutzhund dog get ran, I can only shake my head because that isn't even real pressure, it's the same pattern the dog works every training session.

PSA used to have a rule that the dog could be presented with a forarm bite with a 5 point deduction. I think they did away with that rule. With that said, the majority of PSA scenarios involve a full frontal presentation of the decoy. If a dog were to target the outside of the arm, it would be a major point deduction and seen as a lack of courage, because the dog has to go around/avoid the frontal pressure. You will lose points for the "hard hit" and courage.

If the dog goes to the lower inside arm, most judges will also deduct points and see it as a lack of courage for going to the outside and avoiding the pressure. Of course some dogs are taught to target different areas and decoys can give varying presentations so it is up to the judge to determine what is what. Decoys will get scolded for presenting the lower arm.

didn´t think the PSA dogs I´ve seen on videos was so special compared to the the better SCH-dogs

exactly, the better Sch dogs.

In KNPV all bites are outside or the leg, except the stickattack if I´m not misstaken, in belgian ring there is also leg or forearm bite outside like in SCH, but I think most BR dogs could learn to target the inside if trained for it, don´t you agree?

Wich is the hardest part of PSA then, is there a particular exercise that is harder for the not so strong dogs?

IMO, I think that a SCH dog with great  nerves and drives could do well in PSA  if they went through the same training and imprinting.No dog comes right out of the box green and does either sport at a high level. 

My point being a good dog can do any sport. It is about the constutution and training of the dog itself. Has nothing to do with the sport.

As for the abouve questions....

I am not an expert on KNPV but I believe the stick attack is the only one that is a full frontal. I am sure KNPV does not heavily judge grip becasue some of them have some pretty shitty ones and those KNPV suits are definately not "grip friendly"

As for Belgian ring the upper arm bite the decoy brings his forarm inward against his body, and rotates the inner part of his arm outward. The dog is having to bite the inside of the forarm but tucked inside the upper chest area of the decoy--where the pressure is. They do this specifically to judge grip. Just like Sch but a suit does not give the same "bite bar" or opportunity for the dog to get that "perfect" grip. By rotating the arm, outward it creats a better bite surface for the dog to grip and judge to see.

As for PSA the sport is designed to wash out weak dogs in the level one. You have a full on charging decoy similar to a KNPV stick attack, BUT while the dog is making his entry, a large duffle bag is thrown at the dog. Then the dog is put into a SCH style drive and given two GOOD stick hits with a baboo clatter stick.

Then the attack from hiding excercise involves a decoy comming out of hiding, full frontal, with some sort of environemtal stress (water jugs, hose, hula hoops with ribbons, leaf blower, anything goes) again with the hard drive and stick hits.

The car jack scenario, your dog in a strange car, enclosed space, has to bite a hidden sleeve with heavy agitation (they sling those dogs all around the car my dogs head hit the roof, window frame, and door panel when she did it) decoy in their  face and two gunshots just a couple of feet from their head.

All of this is done with sleeves, hot dogs, tennis balls, or any other distraction you can think of on the field.

So the sport encompasses some of all the other sports KNPV stick attack, BR with environmental stress, FR with the baboo clatter, and hard SCH style drive. All these scenarios can pose serious problems for any dog. 

AS for not being impressed with KNPV dogs, I would suggest attempting to take a bite from or handle one. Might change your mind.

I respect any and all dog sports but some are definatley a better test of the dog (not the training) than others and we all can have our own opinions on that.

Going back to what started all this, good Sch dogs can do any of these sports well. in which we agree, I just emphasized the GOOD ONES

OK, but no matter what sport you participate in you need to train for the rules and scenarios that you can meet on the field. I´m sure a great deal of Policedogs would hesitate if presented with a SCH-courage test, or a mondioring-scenario, if they haven´t been prepared for those situations. So yes, a SCH-dog that suddenly would be expected to do a PSA-couragetest would probably be a bit confused or hesitate, if not used to it.

The original poster wanted a KNPV-lined dog for PSA  because he thought they would suit PSA better, but when they are so few, if any, KNPV-breed GSD-lines for several generations, he would have a better chance of finding a suitable dog among other types of lines I guess, the GSDs in KNPV often is from a SCH-background anyway.

Hey Jennie,

I certainly hope that no department would purchase a K9 that hesitates on the longbite in Sch.  I think the whole idea of a police dog or a PSA dog is to be able to bite no matter what the situation.  That is why no 2 PSA trials are ever exactly the same.  I feel that a real dog should be able to be placed in any situation and bite. 

Kyle

I think it´s just normal for many dogs to hesitate if it´s in an unfamiliar situation, if it hesitates when it have been trained for a task is another story.