Kennels in U.S.A. who have sold the best import showline adults... - Page 3

BTW, Dog1, I was responding to gsdgermany2's statement that - "If a dog if good enough to Va here, the 'big name' kennels never sell them unless the dog is done showing". No one anywhere sells a top dog unless there's something wrong with the dog and/or there's something in it for them.

Take a look at the cross section of the breeders and draw your own conclusion. I can think of about a dozen breeders off the top of my head that have a successful business where the dogs are a hobby for them. They enjoy breeding, producing, training, showing, and have excellent success because it's what they like to do...their passion. They are motivated by excellence. Something money cannot always buy. Somewhere on the other side is the breeder that breeds dogs for a living. Every dime they make to pay their house payment, pay utilities, put food on the table, etc. is from the next dog they sell. As with most professions, some are very successful and very good at their profession, others are not. The rest of the world is somewhere between lets say. I don't think money plays as much a part of the overall population as some would like for you to think. Sure, everyone likes money. Where the importance of money lies is an individual choice. So where's the money in all this? I think some would like to think it's lucrative to get a male, have it go VA and reap the benefits with the thousands made on stud fees. Well it's not that lucrative. Figure the cost to buy or raise and train a dog to VA status. The showing, promoting, travel, training cost, handling, etc, etc. You have thousands invested. Will the dog ever be used enough to pay the expenses? I can say from experience, most don't.

Well, IF Santa were to bring me another GSD, I'd want it to be another GSD from vom Silbersee

You are the one who said we can't get the best dogs here because our dollar is worth less. I'm not talking about the hobby breeder with the 2 1/2 kids and an SUV. I'm talking about the breeders who sell the dogs who were top winners in Germany. Of course they are selling that dog to make money and/or because that dog is no longer of any use to them for any number of reasons. The money is not in the stud fees, it's in the price of the dog. It takes a lot of fees to recoup what is spent on a dog that costs 5 or 6 figures and as you said, most breeders here don't use these dogs anyway. I've never quite understood that either. I seriously doubt that anyone other than a rank novice buys a top winning dog for 5, 6 figures planning to get back the price in stud fees or puppy sales. It's probably not going to happen. The profit lies in the sale and resale of these dogs. Those who are smart don't spend that kind of money to import a dog from Germany as a money making venture. They want to own a special dog and have enough spendable cash to buy that dog. It's a matter of pride to be able to say - I just bought this year's Seiger and he will be at NASS.

We're covering lots of topics here in a sentence or two that could be discussed in length. In general the best are not sold or sold with conditions. What our money can/cannot buy does not affect what other countries can buy or what's available to buy. It doesn't mean ONLY crap dogs are sold. It just mean the numbers don't work for the breeders here. Take a look around. Where are the dogs coming from to replace the top dogs in this country that are retiring? There's a gap. Example. I saw a very nice male in Germany for sale, absolute VA1 candidate here. A few years ago the dog would have been 30,000 US with the conversion. This dog sold within 5 minutes from the time it came out of the trailer to another country. 90,000 US with todays conversion. The countries resources are being squandered and our dollar is in a tailspin,,,,but that's another story too. I'm not sure the top dogs are where all the money is. Top dogs are somewhat random. It's hard to say there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, when you have little control on the rainbow. Let's look at the typical VA group. It takes years of breeding to produce a VA dog. The VA group is from a variety of kennels. A couple of these dogs will sell for a good sum of money and will make a good sum of money along the way. But it's a small percentage of the overall picture and it's spread over a fairly diverse number of people. I see the money more towards the other end of the scale. The typical GSD consumer is looking for an 8 week old puppy and doesn't give a rat's ass if the parents are VA or G. They really don't even know what that means. They just want a cute puppy that's AKC registered with a hip guarantee and they feel better if the dog is from German parents for some reason. Cute puppies are made by good females and the crappy females that come over here. So the problem with the breed from my perspective is not the breeder that breeds and makes a bit of a windfall from years of experience and/or some luck but the breeder that buys the cheap female to make puppies. Just look at the odds. What are the odds of producing a VA dog? Pretty slim. It's a longshot and hardly something to count on in the future. What are the odds I can buy a 2,000 female and make 8 litters of 5 puppies? 40 puppies @ 1,000 each...... and 3 females!!!!! Wooohoooo! That's where the money is and that's where the problem is. It's with the consumer that rewards inferior breeding by not supporting the better breeders. From a different angle. Let's say we want a nice top V dog from Germany to breed here. We have about 6 females in our kennel and other breeders will use the dog. Pick a number, any number for a top dog. Let's say we find something for 25,000e. That's 37,500us. Figure it's going to cost another 6 to 8 thousand to campaign the dog to VA status and keep it there a show or two. 45,500 investment. Count on your dogs getting 4 breedings each to offset the cost. That's 24,000 in cost you can justify. Plan on another 20 outside breedings at 1,000 each. Who wants to search for a dog, buy it, campaign it out of pocket for a few years and in the end loose a grand, even more if you paid more for the dog? Line forms over here. With anything, cars, houses, you name it. The money is always with the masses and not the top level.

You really have to depend on a lot of stud fees and puppy sales to break even on a 90K dog you plan to not re-sell. I'm not keen on producing more GSD's for that reason. Not sure why we need to replace the top dogs here when they are not used much anyway. Most breeders would rather ship their bitches to Germany or there are already too many dogs around out of that particular male or he is producing health issues like EPI or heart defects, oversized progeny, HD or UAP, whatever; maybe the reason he was sold here in the first place. Why do most want a Va dog? Breeding? Showing? Bragging rights? I have not a clue, just asking. Why would anyone pay 90K (or 20, 30, 40 K) for any dog? It looks TO ME like a very complicated system that is set up to fail everyone other than the breeders/sellers/brokers of these "top winning dogs". I do not agree that it's up to the consumer to prevent inferior breeding. That is the responsibility of the breeders/sellers/brokers to not pass off inferior bitches as breeding stock. Why should the consumer be expected to pay outrageous prices for pets? I didn't understand your last sentence.

You will never recover your costs on a 90,000 dog in the US. The dog will not live long enough and be in demand long enough. Somebody will post some crap about it on PDB and the dog will fall out of favor even though it produced exceptionally well in Germany. These top dogs are gifts to the breeders in this country. They were brought in at a loss to the buyer. You bring up a good point. We don't need to replace the dogs here, we need to use the dogs here. Looking at the SID breeding reports. Most breeders don't send their bitches to Germany. Only a few do. Most breeders don't use the best dogs here either. Most breeders breed to what's convenient. Have you looked at what it costs to breed a dog in Germany these days. My last female bred in Germany was over 3,500 by the time she came back. No puppies either. The system is a good system and it is a complicated system. When the system is used, it's designed to take natures place and guide breeders to select the best animals to perpetuate the breed. Just look at the changes in the past 5 years. More physical requirements, more performance requirements, the bar is raised each generation. Maybe you can explain how the system is designed to fail everyone other than the breeders/sellers/brokers with the top winning dogs. Seems to me it's 'designed' to let the best rise to the top. Why would anyone pay so much for a dog? Why would anyone buy a clear, perfect diamond for thousands of dollars when you can get a nice yellow one for a couple hundred? Some people's perspective on value are different. Personal choice. The girl you marry will be just as happy with the yellow diamond as the clear diamond. My last sentence puts the world in perspective. There are products that vary in quality and price. The better more expensive products are not always the products that really make the money for the company. The products that the masses consume is where the bulk of the money is made. Example: The Dodge Viper is the most expensive car Dodge makes. It establishes the upper limit of this manufacturers ability to produce a top quality product in performance, styling, and comfort. Chances are the Viper is not really the car that makes the money in the Dodge line up. The Viper gets the guy in the store so his wife can drag him over to the minivan section where they get the minivan with all the money they saved buying the yellow diamond. Point being the average product is where the money is. Average puppy vs. VA and top dogs.

I wasn't speaking of the "system" being set up to fail if you are talking about the SV rules for breeding. I was speaking of the way the top dogs are managed - who profits financially other than the seller/broker? No one. Why do you say the top dogs are gifts to other countries when the buyers are paying the asking prices? Seems some can sell a dog for any price they want because they know the right market to target. Talk up the dog, walk it out of a trailer at a big show and let the bidding begin. A gift is a freebie, a 90K dog sure ain't that LOL.

When someone pays the price for a top specimen. A price they know they will never recover, and offer the dog for stud, you have a gift of accessing something you could not otherwise afford.