Letter from Dr. Heinrich of the WUSV - Page 9

Yup…a dog “in training” is still theoretically capable of achieving a V score. A dog that’s already trialed and passed with 70s or 80s…you know exactly what that dog is. A dog with just video or photos of bitework on a harness still has the potential to be a bad ass man eater, a dog that’s trialed or isn’t being agitated every 20 seconds…shows what it truly has.

Much easier to make up excuses and demean the sport or the training or whatever else than to take your dog out there and show people what a GSD should be...but that’s because deep down, most people know that their dogs aren’t as spectacular as they try to make them out to be online.

Are SL dogs in Germany titled, if so and I buy the logic I'm reading then conservatively 75% of them should have working ability and that's if I say one out of four even though they have titles which I'm reading is needed to retain working ability, somehow fall through the cracks. STOP IT!
There may be some here that believe titles lead to this superiority of working ability over genetics and knowledge, but the state of SL dogs in Germany completely blows this thinking out of the water. You can't have it both ways, titles equal superior working ability but the majority of the titled dogs don't have any better working ability than working lines without titles that are bred. I laugh when I read this because I know the truth and have seen countless examples of both to not buy the Koos-aid!

Cutaway, you don´t need to be jealous - from my house it´s at least 45 minutes one way to reach the next club, and 1 hour to reach (several) decent clubs - I am surrounded by hills and trees, almost no IPO / FH tracking ground... That´s not the norm, but my German reality. In need to earn money during the day I used to walk and train my dogs with a flash light in the dark months ( October - April ). That´s not the norm, but "my" German reality.


That is definitely something to be jealous about. We have to drive 2 hours for Obedience instructions and at least 3 hours to get to some seriously good helpers. 

Baerenfang, I am glad you have been able to find others interested in training dogs. Maybe that´s the birth of a new club...who knows?

We have a club, just no affiliation. 

Otherwise I am with Bav: "People like to avoid comparing their dogs to others…which is the biggest reason why working ability gets lost. The baseline minimum in each breeder’s own opinion decreases with each generation of their loving line and without titling/competitions they don’t realize it." This is a general statement, for sure it doesn´t fit for every breeder who doesn´t title, but as a basic message it´s true in my mind.

I compare all the time. I am the biggest critic of my own dogs. If I don't feel the dog will cut it, the dog gets placed. I've sent dogs back where they came from because they didn't have working ability. My next breeding female is very close to titling actually but the title itself will not determine wether or not she is breed worthy. There is so much more that goes into the decision to breed her and whom I am going to breed her too. 

Are SL dogs in Germany titled, if so and I buy the logic I'm reading then conservatively 75% of them should have working ability and that's if I say one out of four even though they have titles which I'm reading is needed to retain working ability, somehow fall through the cracks. STOP IT! There may be some here that believe titles lead to this superiority of working ability over genetics and knowledge, but the state of SL dogs in Germany completely blows this thinking out of the water. You can't have it both ways, titles equal superior working ability but the majority of the titled dogs don't have any better working ability than working lines without titles that are bred. I laugh when I read this because I know the truth and have seen countless examples of both to not buy the Koos-aid!

 

EXACTLY!

If I hadn't done the breeding I did because of the lack of titles and ENTIRE LEGACY would have disappeared.  I've listened to those naysayers for far too long and it was almost too late. But if you watch all of it and still say those dogs can't work, have no balance, no hardness, no stability and working drive, than it's nothing more than willful ignorance, and I honestly don't have the time or nerve for that. It's always the same, running in circles. They believe what they want to believe and we know the truth. 

It's just as much denial as the German SV denying that none of their precious judges or competitors would ever use an e collar. 

 

Again, we know the truth!

You can’t compare your own dogs to others. You’re not objective. As much as you want to think you are, you’re human and there is no way you can objectively look at your own dog that you’ve had for 3 years, and a 5 minute youtube video of a dog and objectively make a decision on which dog is better. Sure…there are probably dozens of dogs that are CLEARLY head and shoulders above your dog; dogs that have proven themselves through titling, and in general have more drive and power than what you might have in your kennel. But there are also dogs that are very similar to your dog, and that’s where your dog will always have an advantage as long as you’re doing the evaluating. You’ve also invested time and money (mostly it’s the money thing) into the dog and that will always weigh on a human when making a breeding decision. Sure…most of us can look at our WL bitches and say “well she’s better than 99% of SLs out there, she should be bred.” But is that really true? Up to the breeder to decide.

Can I ask what the LEGACY that you’re preserving is? How has it proven itself in the current generation?

My user name should give you a hint. It literally translates into Baerenfangs Legacy.
I had the last male out of our kennel. The last direct link to my parents legacy. I got the male when he was 5 years old. His papers got lost in the mail and it took years to get a 2nd Copie of them. Once I had his papers he was too old to title in anything. I did the breeding when he was about to turn 10 years old. The second breeding when he was going towards 11.

I should have never waited that long. It was stupid. The combination is incredible and doesn't just preserve our blood. I am the only one that had "Orkan von der Maineiche" progeny. There were two litters with Orkan, the Y and Z Baerenfang litter. And I'm the only one that bred a direct Son of Orkan. So this is the only progeny that even exists of Orkan von der Maineiche.

This is the pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2132656-athos-von-den-sturmfalken

As for how they are working out, the female out of the B litter is basically ready for the 1.
My male, even though I put all the training onto him might be titled by the females handler because I can't physically do it myself but I can train and condition him all the way up. He's my mobility service dog. As high drive as he is, as hard as he is, he is super super super balanced to do the job for me and he's a life saver, especially when my husband isn't home. I know people cringe when they hear "service dog" but he's a fully trained mobility dog and he's proving himself on a daily basis. He was also seen by a lot of very highly regarded people in the sport that don't sugercoat and that will tell you what caliber they are.

They are exactly what I wanted and needed. I knew I was taking a very high risk. I've got one female that unfortunately ended up with ED. All the others are healthy.
And my future breeding female is linebred on 3-4 on Wotan, which is also why I bought her. I wanted the blood connection.
She's going to be bred to Athos.
And Bruna is going to be bred to Asko vom Siegelgrund a direct Gildo son, so we get 2-5 on Gildo, IF she takes it. Since we are talking about 25 year old frozen sperm.

You’ve proven my point…no objectivity. You’re more focused on legacy and pedigree than you are about what is in front of you. 25% of your puppies have ED? Guess you should keep going with the line. Dog wasn’t too old to be trained to title when you got him. His papers shouldn’t have had any bearing on your ability to at least train him to that level. If he were ready when the papers finally go there, you would’ve titled him just fine. Instead he probably just sat around as another one of those “great unknowns” who is bred on pedigree and potential rather than anything real.

Female basically ready for an IPO1…yeah, seems like every dog in this country is basically ready for an IPO1, yet with trials available within driving distance pretty much every weekend…they’re never titled. Want to know why? See my above statement about what happens when you actually get your dog out on a trial field. I shouldn’t need to worry about who “highly regarded people” that you’ve spoken to are, I should just be able to look at a performance and see what the judge gave it. And as someone that’s been in the dog world for some time, you should know that most people aren’t going to bash you or your dog in front of your face when it really doesn’t have any bearing on them. Easier to say nice things and move on with life than to tell you how bad your dog is and get backlash for no reason.

“The combination is incredible” – yeah, on paper everything is incredible, especially when you can sell it to people that have no idea what you’re talking about. Kudos on your write up and ability to speak about your dogs, you’ll sell plenty of puppies in this country that way. Your plan to line breed on Gildo…I’m sure you’ll get one, maybe two puppies out of that. I guarantee they’ll be bred no matter what as well because you can’t lose that “legacy” even though they might just be average dogs at best when all is said and done.

We probably just have different definitions of “incredible.” I’d like to see incredible proven on the field or in a working venue, not just be written on paper because of some line breeding.

I wanted to add...nothing against you or your breeding program…but that’s exactly the type of thinking that has led the breed to go down the path it has. Everyone can come up with a reason why their dog should be bred, and when there are no minimum titling requirements those reasons are even easier to come up with. Traits are quickly forgotten, older dogs are romanticized and not compared with current dogs on an equal ground, and we try to line breed on dogs we never saw or have extremely biased opinions of based on our experience and knowledge at the time we saw them or worked them. Those first few dogs set a standard for us all and every dog after that is compared to them…yet we have special feelings about them and the comparisons are always subjective or skewed.

Gustav, I really like you, but honestly, the vast majority of working lines is not better than the vast majority of show lines, or vice versa ( I am talking about Germany, not about American Showlines ).
The vast majority of dogs ( ! ) are just "normal" dogs, living from the personal skills and goals of trainer and helper.
Within the few "outstanding" dogs you will find more working lines than showlines, and all of the top trainers are in search of these dogs... Not every working line is "breed worthy" - far away from it.

In case the working lines would be that good, there would be no buying and selling in top sport, but there is, not less than in the show ring. Working lines do show the same faults as show lines - some are skittish, afraid of people, afraid of noises, even lazy, or don´t have enough prey drive (funny, isn´t it?). I could go on and on, the pups do come, and the dogs do go...

Almost all of the top trainers do buy green adults, because they know even working lines are a crap shot ( and I am not talking about health now ).

About "titles"... I tried to explain my point of view several times - for a breeder a title is the result of TRAINING, and during training he will learn about the advantages and disadvantages of his/her breeding stock. Afterwards he should think about his breeding program, not instead of.

All these people outside of Europe telling me "titles are that easy" - why don´t you title your dogs in case it´s "that easy"?
Why do almost all Americans avoid comparison in case of their pets?
Why do most American breeders breed without carying about working abilities whereas a lot of American trial competitors don´t even breed on a regular basis?

No training=no knowledge about your own dogs
No comparison=no standard
No pressure=no proof

@Susie: