GSDCA Lawsuit - Letter of Clarification from the AKC - Page 9

Susie,

Thank you for your answers. The particpation in those events is pretty much the same in Germany as the U.S.

Booboo,

What about 2012 UScA Nationals? Hosted by Mr. Roetemeyer's club. About as "in your own backyard" as it gets.

Look at the top three. Not exactly people that are a part of the "in crowd" that you claim are the only competitors that can win.

Again, were you there in Kansas City in 2011, or have you seen any video of performances?

As usual, more unfounded garbage from you!

 WHY do we even encourage the  nonsense from the nonsensical by responding?   When my baby sister threw a tantrum, we all got up and left the room.  Eventually, without an audience responding to her nonsense, she stopped doing it.  Some will do anything  for attention, even negative attention.  If they don't get it, they fade away.

 

You also mention other VDH events. Are you asking that UScA become the new AKC in the U.S.? UScA is a club only and it was founded on Schutzhund being the primary focus, not a bunch of other sports.

@OGBS, all good points.  No I don't think they should become another breed registry, BUT Since the GSDCA is a member of the WUSV and the WUSV is a member of the VDH, that should mean VDH titles can be offered stateside.  Its all a matter of getting judges for those events, over here from Germany, and based on my research they are mostly the same judges everyone is using now.

My question to you is, How many people do you know of that actually want to do any of these other things?

Now to get to your other point about participation and interest.  Thats where the issue of "grooming the future" comes into play.  As many of us know a lot of AKC folks and people participating in "therapy dog" work are hesistant to do bitework.  But at the same time I see many of these seasoned AKC folks doing dock-diving and barnhunt, which really haven't been around as organized sports for all that long and certainly not as old as the RH and STP.

My question is, why Barnhunt and not STP? Why dock-diving and not THS?  Why NACSW Nosework and not RH?

The answer is that these "fringe" title and trial granting bodies took the time to seize the market and can now be deemed successful, in hind sight.  There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why clubs using FCI rules such as WDA, GSDCA and USCA couldn't have taken the market share of the NACSW, BHA and NADD DECADES earlier.  It was a missed oppournity, by these clubs, to capitalize of an existing relationship to the rules and judge structure of FCI.  So now people say "well nobody does these event anyway".  Of course they don't, their too busy doing dock-diving, Barnhunt and Nosework, but lets ignore the obviously reality that these same people could have instead been doing STP, RH and THS decades ago.

So, when IPO/SchH folks say "AKC folks won't do bitework and we don't want them anyway" its just a cop-out excuse, used to cover up the reality, that they lost those people by not reacting to market demand and publicizing all of the non-bitework events that they had been certified and authorized to offer for decades.

I´m with Bob, there don´t need to be that much competitors, the trialing should be about quality, not quantity.
No trials/no proof  = no breeding = fewer pets looking like German Shepherds.

Dock Diving and Nosework events are filled with registered German Shepherds (some of which are very high drive).  If thats not the target audience than who is?

Susie .. The SV web site says "over 60K" members if my German is still functional .. how many members did the SV have in 2004 ( ie 10 years earlier ).  Seems to me that the SV has been losing members at about a 2% per year loss rate.  My co-workers in Germany were German national engineers, chemists, and scientists who were not supportive when I told them I had purchased a schutzhund trained GSD while living in Germany from 1997-2000.  The feedback that I got from my German friends and co-workers was not positive about schutzhund dogs.  It seems I remember the SV once having 75K members??  I have been to the rodeo where all problems are local or transient and I think the IPO world is shrinking regardless of nation or dog breed.  Anything to report from Germany or the BeNeLux.

From Momo: "Since the GSDCA is a member of the WUSV and the WUSV is a member of the VDH, that should mean VDH titles can be offered stateside. "

THe WUSV is not a member of the VDH. The SV is. Nowhere in the WUSV bylaws does it say that WUSV membership allows member clubs to offer VDH titles.

OGBS .. I can't explain an outbreak of honesty and integrity in 2012 at the USCA Nationals.  Maybe there was adult supervision or Roetemeyer was having his knees operated on and couldn't get things "organized".  If 2013 had not shown a clear relapse you might have a point.  Possibly it was someone else's year??  I don't think they post whose year it is as it is bad for morale.

THe WUSV is not a member of the VDH. The SV is. Nowhere in the WUSV bylaws does it say that WUSV membership allows member clubs to offer VDH titles.

@OGBS, I'm not going to flat out say, no, you are wrong.  But at the same time, I 'm also not so sure thats the way the rules are interpreted.  Neither of us is an expert, so we really can't know for sure if one of us is completely right or if portions of what we are both saying is correct.  These three organizations DEFINITELY have some official arrangements involving rules and judges, so hearsay from either of us is insufficient.

Here is the membership listing of the SV on the VDH website?

http://www.vdh.de/welpen/zuechter/mverein?id=7

If someone knows of these bylaws, please chime in.

@OGBS, however, do you have a response to my other items?

Momos, sorry about the confusion, but "trialing" for ME is SchH, IPO, FR, Mondio... THERE we need quality, not quantity.

Bubba, I said several times that times change over here, too. We are loosing members, and less puppies are born year after year, but honestly, I don´t think that´s bad...There are more than enough dogs out there, and the German Shepherd dog is no breed that should be kept in an appartment in the city.They belong to people willing to train, they need a job, otherwise a lot of them end in the pound ( or are sold to the States ). Given that we don´t need that much classic working dogs any more, and given that even over here the youth is interested in computers now and not in daily routines with a dog any more that´s a normal progress. The pet people should buy pet breeds, participate in fun sports, and be happy.

Momo,

I stand by exactly what I said. The WUSV in not a member of the VDH.

To answer the rest of your questions:

People do what they want with their dogs. I can not force anyone to get involved with the sport I compete in. As I said before, I agree that there are many lost opportunties by most, but, not all of the Sch/IPO clubs in this country. Both the individual clubs and the national clubs need to do a better job of promoting what we do. There are many things people can do with their dog, like a simple BH, and the dog does not have to be a high powered working type dog. I completely agree, but, if the clubs do not want to promote these activities, they do not have to. You can see that this is no different in Germany (home of the SV, WUSV, and VDH) than it is in other countries.

The last thing I will write in this post is that most people do not want to be involved in anything that involves biting. Our sport, and others like it, are based on biting. To most people biting is bad and should be banished. This alone keeps many, many people away. For biting sports to survive this is a good thing to keep them away. These are, generally speaking, the same people who will eventually find a way to convince legislators to ban our sport. The more of them that are around and aware of what we do the greater chance we do not survive. I would much rather they do dock diving with their dogs than give them access to destroying mine.

Momos, sorry about the confusion, but "trialing" for ME is SchH, IPO, FR, Mondio... THERE we need quality, not quantity.

@susie, we have corresponded about this before and we both agree that SchH and IPO are not for everyone.  But the issue that we seem to disagree on is how to screen for people whom are cut out for SchH and IPO.  I think the IPO/SchH community in the USA would find a LOT more suitable people if they started PUBLICLY offering other non-bite work events and trials, as a means to "screen people".  But no one in the IPO/SchH community here wants to "screen" anyone by FIRST giving access and advice.  They instead want people swearing an oath to a "pilgrimage" of sorts, without any initial guidance focused on teaching the rules of showing and titling in FCI events.  This method has been proven to turn away many good people from the community that have actually had a lot to contribute.  Once the "pilgrimage talk" starts, smart people will tune out and turn to Dock-Diving and nosework instead.

The last thing I will write in this post is that most people do not want to be involved in anything that involves biting. Our sport, and others like it, are based on biting. To most people biting is bad and should be banished. This alone keeps many, many people away. For biting sports to survive this is a good thing to keep them away.

@OGBS and there is this misconception again.  Which people on this forum keep reaching for and repeating.  Essentially hoping that by saying it often, the more likely it will become true testimony to casual observers, whom don't know any different. 

The SV allows for a breed survey with an RH or HGH title, in lieu of an IPO/SchH title.  The "sport" that many of you speak of, actually has THREE qualifying title categories leading to a breed survey.  Why do some here not understand that its not "our sport", but an international venue for titles, which include more than just steps leading to bitework inclusive titles?

Also please provide a link or citation to the WUSV bylaws, in question, in any language.  I'd like to confirm that WUSV clubs are barred from offering FCI or VDH titles, in writing.  Not saying you are wrong, but you are as much of an expert on the international rules as anyone else here.