$100K Clone Mutt - Page 9

Yep someone is.......

Maybe you can understand genetic ability in an animal with this annalogy; a gentetic herding dog is trained in control, but not to herd. If one must train a dog to herd, they are not a genetic herder.
A genetic cutting horse is trained in control, but not to cut. A horse which must be taught to cut, is not a "natural" or genetic cutter.....the herding dog and the cutting horse which must to trained to perform the task is not likely to produce "naturals" in one generation, no matter how proficient the training makes the animal perform. GENETICS...they have or they don't, including sniffer dogs. Which brings us full circle to GSDLineage's thread. If the sniffer dog is a genetic wonder, the clones will have the propensity to learn the job easier than if the genteics are not there.

Btw, for those who think that I am implying that there is a "marker" in a singular gene for "sniffer" dog, I'm not. Except for single cell life forms, life is much more complex than being able to point a finger on one marker in a single isolated gene.....just to make that clear so there is not another long discussion about something I didn't claim.

The problem is that all of these genetic animals need training along the way.  Real life example.  I grew up with herding border collies.  Best dog by far we ever had was Sugar.  She was constantly wanting to herd.  When she wasn't working the cattle you had to kennel her up or she's putting the chickens back into the coop.  At 6 mos old we wondered if she was ever going to work.  She gradually got better with more time and age.  Now was she a genetic herding dog?  I say she was because she learned to do it so exceedingly well.  Others might say no because she had to be taught.

That's the catch 22 when you're training.  Did they learn it or are they doing it because they are genetically predisposed to do it.  Epigenetics explains some of this variation with gene activation.  Genetic diversity some of the others with alleles. 

Back to your horse example.  Years ago Sheila Varian (an arab horse breeder) took an arab mare she had bred and competed at the cow palace in the cutting class.  This is a quarter horse dominated event and her little arab mare opened some eyes and won it all against horses that we would all say were genetically predisposed to cut cattle.  Conversly we wouldn't think of the Arab mare as being genetically gifted in cutting cattle since Arabs weren't bred for that. 

We make the mistake of trying to determine genetics based on the aptitude of an animal doing something.  He grips full, must be genetic.  Cuts Cattle and wins Championships.  Must be genetic.

Truth is, we don't know which genes cause which activity.  We don't know how to activate genes in a controlled manner that we could manipulate for a desired result.   Someone earlier made a comment about breeding two animals together that they knew would produce full grips.  You can't know till you do it.  To me, that's the only definition of genetic traits that we currently have.  Do they pass it on to the next generation.  If my dog's grip, bull's buck, etc. passes on to the next generation, then we have reason to believe it is genetic.  If they don't pass it on, then it is more likely (but not always) a learned behavior. 

Bz, i don't have time to read your entire post, just skimmed enough to see that you are determined to argue no matter what. Who cares which gene is responsible for any given behavior, desirable or not. Dog breeds came about through selective breeding....the people matching those pairs of dogs didn't give a thought ast o which gene was responible and which marker on which gene and blablalbla blaaalblbla. They chose the dogs, horses (and yes, bare back and saddle broncs are selectively bred for GENETIC buckers) for the desired traits of performance and culled the undesirable ones ( calf killers dogs, savage horses) from the breeding program. So who gives two shits as to which gene causes a bull to buck...THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The only reason I even mentioned the cloned PBR bulls was as an example for the topic of this thread.....not to educate you as to what the PBR is or how bulls are trained, yes TRAINED, to stand in the chute and allow a rider to tighten a rope around his girth.....or how to TRAIN a bull to exit the pen after the rider dismounts. That was not the point.

Bz, you don't seem to be able to grasp the idea of training vs genetic ability. The GSD is in the state it's in because people evedently have not given enough weight to the influence of genetics...train the screamer to cap the leaky drive and breed it to another trained screamer and on and on for generations, and tell us what the result will be in about three or four generations. Maybe then you will be able to tell what's genetic.

Sorry, I´m out of this thread for now, makes no sense.
Still waiting for RompNRun´s response, hopefully he/she will answer. I have a lot of questions...
A lot of new findings about genetics during the last 15 years, still trying to establish myself in epigenetics...

Yep,

As soon as the subject gets deep Joanro starts slinging.  Educatiing me to PBR that's funny. Or genetics from you that's even funnier.  See I learned by listening to those who know more than I do.  The state of the GSD is because there is NO breeding program in this country.  Just dog's being bred to other dogs based on observations like yours.  Why, it must be genetic because I said so.  And yet an Arab can outcut the Quarter Horses (your example, you just don't like where it went). 

We could talk about inheritibility percentages for traits.  That's been done for years and part of what the Germans are trying with the hip numbers.

Problem is everyone wants to be an expert without cracking the books and doing the boring dirty work of learning anything that isn't learned from a tv announcer or a thread on the internet. 

Bz, you assume a lot. I trained an Arab stud to cut fourty years ago. So what? I know they can be trained to do most anything any other breed can do..that's why they are behind so many breeds. You didn't give any detail as to the competition. But who cares. You are a bore and i've already wasted too much time responding to your drivel....

I did but you'd have to read.  It's easier for you to name call