Top Showlines with good protection phase - Page 9

Well, not to be a poop but national shmational.  There are showlines that have competed nationally I don't care for (yes, "working" ability) and several that haven't that I would take any day over the ones that have.  Same goes for working lines.  It still does not address my earlier concerns and seems to only perpetuate the idea that as long as the dog has a SchH3 from a certain event, then he MUST be a good "working" dog.  How does entering a national event tell us anything about the dog's drives, threshold, style of work, suspicion, nerve, etc?  I don't care about national entries or placements, I still maintain that for me to make my own opinion of the dog I want to see it work in training and not just perform the routines.  Also I want to see consistency (for example, one current VA dog I have seen in bitework training, I've seen his performance tests multiple times at Sieger shows, and I've seen the dog just out being social....and from these I have formed my opinion of the dog, which is much different than what I might have assumed if I'd only seen only one of the previous).

Male show lines that have stood out to me IN PERSON would be Ork, ObiWan v Theishof, BeDarthVadar v Theishof, Jimmy Arminius.  I cannot speak to how these dogs produce.  Actually I train with a Jimmy son and he is very nice, potential to V in protection.

Congratulations Molly!

Since you have trialed a dog Nationally your dog nomination is automatically on the list. Thanks for your participation. Aeros is on the list.

VKGSDs

All good dogs. I don't see the national event associated with them. Trying to keep it unbiased here. If you have trialed a dog Nationally, you can pick one from your list for the list.

VKGSDs

We have to use some criteria.

Since you seem to have some in depth criteria and we are using some of your thoughts here; pick what you think is really the best dog and we'll put it on the list.

Dog1, I think you have set things up pretty nicely with your criteria. I think the requirement for a National event is very good. Regardless of if the dog did well or not, it was there in a very public forum for the world to see. Not at some local closed trial. That pretty much weeds out the midnighters and the "how to get your Sch.3 in 6 mo. or less" crowd.

Rik

Rik,

We're just beginning. Once we have what we feel is a complete list. You and the other volunteers will start dissecting the pedigree to see what if any dogs are common in the pedigree. This should reveal which dogs consistently produce the working character.

Once that is done, we can take a look at some of the dogs that are not quite as accomplished and determine if there is a pattern. If we see a pattern, we have identified the dogs that consistently produce. Make sense?

I don't pick a dog that does passable at a national event and/or a few performance tests at Sieger shows.  I'm looking for a specific combination of traits the dog either has or he hasn't.  Doesn't matter if he's SchH1 club trial or SchH 3 at nationals.  Why does a national entry make a dog any better?  There are some aspects of Molly's dog that I like better than some of the other SchH3 dogs meeting your criteria that are listed.  My most recent dog is a working line male from a relatively young sire that has not competed at national events (maybe will in the future, makes no difference to me).  I liked what I saw, it fit my needs, and I stand by my pick.  Whether or not the sire or dam ever compete at regionals or nationals is entirely up to their owners/handlers and does not change the fact that in my mind, they are "better" working dogs than 99.9% of the showlines I've personally seen.

I guess I would change the criteria to be dogs whose scores and scorebooks the owners are willing to share.  IMO, most of the dogs that "earned" titles at midnight trials or showline club level trials do not ever share their scores.  The performance tests have already proven that we should put absolutely no face value in the title alone.  Personally I'd place more weight on V or high SG scores in SchH1 than a SchH3 that just squeaked by or is not even willing to share the scores or details of the trial.

Also, in the context of breeding, we should evaluate how these dogs produce.  So wouldn't your criteria be show lines at nationals who have produced show lines at nationals?

Let's try now with dog1's criteria and see the results and learn from them, and maybe we do one more excecise based on VKGSDs' criteria and maybe we compare both criteria results.

Ibrahim