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by MAINLYMAX on 03 November 2010 - 16:11
of her grand kids...she would go after them with a baseball bat.
This is her defense drive being worked in protection. ..She had pray drive
in her younger days.....slowed down... but still has the heart of some one
much younger.
Civil is a zone.........most dogs go in and out of, some dog never
become civil. But can and do bite.
A good dog that is civil... is like a guard dog on duty looking for
trouble. Not afraid to confront it. You can't just say it is temperament
or training, There are several things that come into play. 5 major
parts to it. This is why I like to refer to it as a zone. Multi Fundamentals.
by Ace952 on 03 November 2010 - 17:11
Very good informaton.
Thanks for the videos Prager.
Does anyone have videos of training bad and good.
For a novice like me, I can't tell if trainer/decoy is doing something wrong or not.
Anyone have videos to compare and contrast and explain what is being done right and what is being done wrong? I know not everyone will agree but I'm sure people can come to a general consensus.
by Ace952 on 03 November 2010 - 17:11
double post
by Slamdunc on 03 November 2010 - 17:11
Max,
Perhaps, we are looking at it differently or describe or view a "civil" dog sightly differently. When I describe a dog as "civil," I am referring strictly to temperament when not agitated. How does the dog view people in general. How social is the dog? How does the dog respond to stimulus? How easily can true aggression be seen or brought out?
To give an example; one of my favorite dogs in our K9 unit belongs to a friend. A 3 year old GSD that I helped select. The dog has true aggression and quickly goes into a rage with little or no agitation required. He then can quickly switch back to a friendly, somewhat social dog. Most people won't approach or pet this dog, but I do because I really like him. I was at my buddies house and the dog was in the kennel, I went to the kennel said his name and reached in and started petting him. The dog was happy to see me and kissed my hand, wagged his tail happily and jumped on the gate for me to scratch his neck. I did this 3 or 4 times while I was there. I then approached and changed my demeanor, just my thought process nothing else and gave the dog a look. The dog immediately exploded and would have bit me for real. The dog sensed my change in demeanor and keyed off of it, the only outward sign was the eye contact I made and look I gave the dog. I had a reason for doing this and the handler understood.
My point in describing that dog is that he is the same whether he is at home or at work, he can switch very quickly, virtually instantly. He has been that way since we purchased him. He has no equipment fixation issues and only bites a suit, sleeve or hidden sleeve to get to the man. IMO, he has a "civil" side when describing his temperament.
I see what you are saying about the "zone." I view it as a description of the drive the dog is in. Certainly, when in the "zone" like a building search for example the dog will be in "drive" and through training will actively hunt, search and engage a person who is active or passive. That is how we train and the dogs go into "drive" or as you say "zone" as soon as the warning commands are given at the door.
I fully agree that the dogs relax when not working and the disposition changes. This is actually critical for a PSD, they need time to decompress and destress after serious incidents just like we do. Handlers need to keep this in mind for the welfare of their dog.
Jim
by Slamdunc on 03 November 2010 - 17:11
I'll use my dog as an example of a dog with a "civil" side. The dog is a high drive animal, loaded in prey and defense. He is higher in prey than defense, probably 60 / 40. Yet, he is very serious in his bite work, focused on the man and clear headed. He is a strong, confident dog with a very stable temperament. However, the dog will not allow strangers to pet him. He will bring a ball to a stranger and let them throw the ball to him, so he can chase and retrieve it. He will bring the ball back and drop it a stranger's feet and wait for them to throw it. He will do this in a park or at home with friends in my house. If someone wants to play with him, I clearly explain the rules: you can play ball all day with this dog, but you can not pet him. After 20 or 30 minutes people begin to feel comfortable and think the dog is now their friend and attempt to pet him despite prior warnings. The dog will immediately, give a look and a very deep, low, guttural growl. If the person doesn't stop he will approach and let them know that he doesn't appreciate this "inappropriate touching." Normally, the look and low growl is enough for people to stop. He doesn't bark or lash out, just looks and growls. If he is laying down he will stand up, spit out his toy and deliberately move towards the person. I would describe him as being somewhat "civil."
Jim
by beetree on 03 November 2010 - 18:11
by MAINLYMAX on 03 November 2010 - 19:11
My Grand mother..........I was trying to make myself sound younger.
You blew that out of the water.
by beetree on 03 November 2010 - 21:11
by Prager on 03 November 2010 - 21:11
1. No there was no equipment what so ever. Dogs were in familiar environment and every thing else was different. They have never seen black person or negative challenge agitation.
2. Dogs were developed in prey. Usually one man routine by me. The bite and out is on sleeve in prey.
3. Up to certain maturity I do not put dog into defense through negative challenge but I always encourage display of protective aggression if appropriate and discourage it if inappropriate. For example if stranger walks by my property and 6 week old pups barks at it I encourage such behavior and accompany it with alert command and praising. However if stranger becomes friend or turnes out to be a child I change demeanor to positive and expect the pup to defuse. If he does not I correct him with stiff voice.
With this I am teaching the dog to discriminate between danger and none danger, between enemy and friend.
You need to understand that training is a lot of gut feelings or art if you will. What I mean is that it is important to know what each dog as an individual can deal with in the certain age and at certain level of training and socialization. I personally just "know" that the dog can succeed in the next level of training or I do not go there until I do. That comes with experience. Thus there is not schedule. You must "go along with" the dog and not against it. That is applicable to training, age, socialization and particular temperament of each individual dog. Thus no round peg throgh square hole please. Do not force on the dog a method which does not fit, but go with what the dog is strong in.
As far as the videos goes go they were just a test which was requested by other trainer. I have no problem to put my money where my mouth is were the request is reasonable and I even welcome it since I get free training. I am always ready to stop the workout if I see something inappropriate. This is about 1 % of what the dogs have to go through being trained. The video supposed to show civility and protective drive of the dogs since that is the topic of the thread.
I agree with Jim and next time will think twice let people provoke me to put out here videos of my system or training . I do not mind critique and questions in polite manner. I resent facetious, demeaning statements. I am not anonymous as most of you here are and I am willing to openly expose my self and then get disrespect. I do not think that is fair. I want to share my knowledge here and learn from others. That is all. I am not interested in defending myself against insults. I am not crying here as you know can dish it out too, but I do not want it to be that way here. This forum has so much to offer if people would be more respectful. I am just trying to set this forum onto higher level.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by MAINLYMAX on 03 November 2010 - 22:11
The civil zone is a good thing, ...the dog is collected up and
is looking for any possible threat from a bad guy.
My old australian shepherd would growl if someone other than family
approached him to closely. But he lack 2 main components for civil.
Police dogs are the best example when you see them working a crowd or
during apprehension of a suspect. They clearing show all 5 parts you look for.
Some police dogs are so good... that they are one step ahead of
their handlers.
Most police departments bring in dogs that do not meet the necessary skills
unfortunately. But every year more and more dog handlers for the police department
are seeing the type of dog they should be using.
First start with a good dog.....you need clay to make the sculpture.
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