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by VonIsengard on 12 February 2010 - 14:02
Prager: "If the show dog can also work then is is only an atavistic throwback and not a purposely bred quality." I've worked with enough American showline dogs to agree completely with this statement. However, if you refer to German showlines as well, I will respectfully disagree. Of course it is the exception and not the norm, but it does not always occur by chance.
There are a few breeders of German showlines who still care very much about the work and have no interest in dogs who cannot perform. Let me tell you, between that and the genetic bottleneck looming over our showlines, it makes finding an appropriate dog to purchase or breed to extremely difficult. The last Sieger Show I went to I didn't even bother to go to see the working class placements, I saw everything I needed the day before during the performance test. If a dog I bred works well, I guarantee you I did it on purpose.
Sorry to take it OT.
There are a few breeders of German showlines who still care very much about the work and have no interest in dogs who cannot perform. Let me tell you, between that and the genetic bottleneck looming over our showlines, it makes finding an appropriate dog to purchase or breed to extremely difficult. The last Sieger Show I went to I didn't even bother to go to see the working class placements, I saw everything I needed the day before during the performance test. If a dog I bred works well, I guarantee you I did it on purpose.
Sorry to take it OT.
by Keith Grossman on 12 February 2010 - 15:02
"Well said Prager, but you know I am trying."
I think more people are, gucci, than Hans gives them credit for.
I think more people are, gucci, than Hans gives them credit for.
by beetree on 12 February 2010 - 15:02
Thanks for that link Maggie. A very good read. And a surprise and welcome back to see Preston posting on it!
by Prager on 13 February 2010 - 01:02
German/European show dogs must past title before they can be shown in conformation.
That said ability of US GSD to perform in SchH is nothing compared to German/ European show lines. German/European show dogs are much better in ability to perform in SchH then US Show lines.
The quality you do not breed for, will pretty much disappear in 3 generations. It will take you at least as many generations to get it back if it is even there in the genetic pool. I know kennels in Czech, and I am sure they are also elsewhere, which are proud of their show dogs being able also to perform in SchH.
That said please keep in mind that sport is not work. We need to promote in our dogs natural: protectiveness, territoriality, intelligence, natural prey and defense drive, fast maturity, alertness, courage, hardness (as in ability to withstand pressure), fighting drive, herding ability, discriminativnes, longevity, strong immune system.... Sound structure devised from ability to work ( and not from ability to just prance nicely on a golf course). Emphasis is on the word NATURAL = GENETICALLY BASED.
That would be good place to start. What show breeder promotes these qualities?
Don Quixote?
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
That said ability of US GSD to perform in SchH is nothing compared to German/ European show lines. German/European show dogs are much better in ability to perform in SchH then US Show lines.
The quality you do not breed for, will pretty much disappear in 3 generations. It will take you at least as many generations to get it back if it is even there in the genetic pool. I know kennels in Czech, and I am sure they are also elsewhere, which are proud of their show dogs being able also to perform in SchH.
That said please keep in mind that sport is not work. We need to promote in our dogs natural: protectiveness, territoriality, intelligence, natural prey and defense drive, fast maturity, alertness, courage, hardness (as in ability to withstand pressure), fighting drive, herding ability, discriminativnes, longevity, strong immune system.... Sound structure devised from ability to work ( and not from ability to just prance nicely on a golf course). Emphasis is on the word NATURAL = GENETICALLY BASED.
That would be good place to start. What show breeder promotes these qualities?
Don Quixote?
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Prager on 13 February 2010 - 01:02
Let me add to the post above. Even in Europe Show lines can not mesure in performance with their sport lines.
Prager Hans
Prager Hans
by wrestleman on 13 February 2010 - 02:02
Don't often agree with Prager, but on this I must. But I think some of the German show people Take pride in the ability of some of their dogs to work. With that being said the great majority of show dogs aren't VA dogs, just look at the tapes of bite work in the VA dogs and some of the higher placing dogs and its just embarrassing. You are correct that these are not performance line dogs as well, but the west German show lines are as different in some cases from the working line dogs as these narrow headed washed out dogs are from any resemblance of a German Shepherd. Also Hans Prager Ill be glad to trade you a ton of this snow for some of your sunshine...got 2 1/2 feet in my yard ... these crazy GS love it they are like kids in a candy shop...
by jc.carroll on 13 February 2010 - 12:02
On the original topic: At least that breeder's GSDs aren't as extreme as some of the other Am GSDs I see. They're not completely flat on their hocks.They're a bit larger than I'd find ideal, but that's just my views. I can't say anything else, but if the breeder has a contract that buyers must feed his food to their pups, a potential customer who finds the contract too restrictive might want to look elsewhere. If he doesn't require that in a contract, then he may just be rather fruity. There's enough "rather off" breeders out there... customers too for that matter.
On the debate about type; I do not have a problem with any GSD as long as it has the mental and physical capacity to do the work for which it was intended, herding or nowadays more often police/military applications -- of which schutzhund, mondio, KNVP, and ring sports are derived from.
Honestly, I see very few GSDs that posess a natural herding instinct anymore. I see them more often displaying traits of a breed selected for guarding. (Side note: herding and flock guarding are two different concepts: the dogs that work livestock as compared to the dogs that live with it and keep wolves away; two totally different sets of traits.)
If a GSD cannot herd, cannot guard because its joints are weak and its head is filled with nothing but fluff, then it's a poor representation of the breed. And if these poor specimens are bred together, repeatedly, well I suppose everyone knows what happened to the Irish Setter: a beautiful dog, bred only for looks in the AKC, now almost impossible to find workinglines of. They exist, but alas the breed as a whole has been ruined by a program that emphasizes look, rather than maintaining working ability.
If Am GSDs needed to pass a working trial before being eligible for upper levels of conformation, like the SV, then I think it might be a wake-up call for a lot of Am breeders to find out how truly imperfect their dogs may actually be.
Personally, I am fascinated by different types-within-breed of dogs. Most breeds have a workingline and a showline type. As long as both types retain form and functional characteristics, I think that should be the focus. And I don't think "showdog" should be an excuse for breeding "pretty" but useless specimens.
On the debate about type; I do not have a problem with any GSD as long as it has the mental and physical capacity to do the work for which it was intended, herding or nowadays more often police/military applications -- of which schutzhund, mondio, KNVP, and ring sports are derived from.
Honestly, I see very few GSDs that posess a natural herding instinct anymore. I see them more often displaying traits of a breed selected for guarding. (Side note: herding and flock guarding are two different concepts: the dogs that work livestock as compared to the dogs that live with it and keep wolves away; two totally different sets of traits.)
If a GSD cannot herd, cannot guard because its joints are weak and its head is filled with nothing but fluff, then it's a poor representation of the breed. And if these poor specimens are bred together, repeatedly, well I suppose everyone knows what happened to the Irish Setter: a beautiful dog, bred only for looks in the AKC, now almost impossible to find workinglines of. They exist, but alas the breed as a whole has been ruined by a program that emphasizes look, rather than maintaining working ability.
If Am GSDs needed to pass a working trial before being eligible for upper levels of conformation, like the SV, then I think it might be a wake-up call for a lot of Am breeders to find out how truly imperfect their dogs may actually be.
Personally, I am fascinated by different types-within-breed of dogs. Most breeds have a workingline and a showline type. As long as both types retain form and functional characteristics, I think that should be the focus. And I don't think "showdog" should be an excuse for breeding "pretty" but useless specimens.
by jc.carroll on 13 February 2010 - 12:02
*adds*
On the flip-side a dog bred soley for working ability, but with no regard to conformation will soon start to look quite varied. There are already those herding dogs in Germany, including several related breeds to the GSD that are only bred as herding dogs and can have nearly limitless variety in earset, coat type, color and pattern...
For those looking to produce a specific breed that conforms to a standard, working ability is not the be-all and end-all.
A conformationally correct but vapid and flimsy showline is arguably no better than a curl-tailed, floppy-eared working dog with a long coat.
...although I'd still personally prefer the working dog *wink*.
On the flip-side a dog bred soley for working ability, but with no regard to conformation will soon start to look quite varied. There are already those herding dogs in Germany, including several related breeds to the GSD that are only bred as herding dogs and can have nearly limitless variety in earset, coat type, color and pattern...
For those looking to produce a specific breed that conforms to a standard, working ability is not the be-all and end-all.
A conformationally correct but vapid and flimsy showline is arguably no better than a curl-tailed, floppy-eared working dog with a long coat.
...although I'd still personally prefer the working dog *wink*.
by dutss on 13 February 2010 - 13:02
It is hard enough to get a good working dog out of quality working lines, why waste your time with anything less?
by Gustav on 13 February 2010 - 13:02
Hans, you are correct in what you are saying, but unfortunately we must wait until the deterioration of the breed and the education of the breeders necessitate change. It is so interesting to me, when I see people that 5 years ago who were trying to project that these dogs "just " lack training, or the breeders "just" aren't interested in "Sch", but that these dogs are the same as other GS. Now five years later some of these same people are owning dogs from Sch backgrounds or are trying to find one! I have sold many dogs over the years to AKC people who are fed up with the health and temperament of these lines. I very very seldom see people who have working type dogs go back to American lines. So we must continue to educate in spite of the toes that feel stepped on because the dog they "like" should not be continued to be bred and proliferate.
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