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by Paul Konschak on 02 June 2010 - 03:06
Wolfinbok
I am assuming that the cross you are referring to is the Airport Hannover cross that was done repeatedly with very good results for the B, E, G, and K litters. Most have been shown to be very good producers. I like my dog but I don't think I have the best Kyra breeding. I think the first with Gismo is the best. I think Alpha and Assina have proved that with themselves and their progeny. I love Gismo and the dogs that he produces. I would like to see more linebreedings on him. He produces alot of aggression
I am assuming that the cross you are referring to is the Airport Hannover cross that was done repeatedly with very good results for the B, E, G, and K litters. Most have been shown to be very good producers. I like my dog but I don't think I have the best Kyra breeding. I think the first with Gismo is the best. I think Alpha and Assina have proved that with themselves and their progeny. I love Gismo and the dogs that he produces. I would like to see more linebreedings on him. He produces alot of aggression
by Keith Grossman on 02 June 2010 - 14:06
"THATS a Joke and fits the description of most (possibly not all) Show dogs."
I agree that that's a joke that fits the description of some show dogs but you seem to be under the impression that it isn't possible for a dog to be beautiful, have correct structure and temperament and do good work. I have had and have worked with both show and working lines and each has its strengths and weaknesses. While I understand why many people who train with dogs prefer working lines because the dogs tend to be harder and sharper, ergo, easier to train and more difficult to screw up, it could also be argued that those traits are not indicative of the calm, stable demeanor that are hallmarks of the breed. To suggest that there are no show line dogs whose work is every bit as good as working line dogs, however, is ridiculous. The division, in my experience, in less about a difference in the dogs than it is about the attitudes of many of the people who own and train with them. Try to avoid painting the world with such a broad brush.
I agree that that's a joke that fits the description of some show dogs but you seem to be under the impression that it isn't possible for a dog to be beautiful, have correct structure and temperament and do good work. I have had and have worked with both show and working lines and each has its strengths and weaknesses. While I understand why many people who train with dogs prefer working lines because the dogs tend to be harder and sharper, ergo, easier to train and more difficult to screw up, it could also be argued that those traits are not indicative of the calm, stable demeanor that are hallmarks of the breed. To suggest that there are no show line dogs whose work is every bit as good as working line dogs, however, is ridiculous. The division, in my experience, in less about a difference in the dogs than it is about the attitudes of many of the people who own and train with them. Try to avoid painting the world with such a broad brush.
by Wolfinbok on 02 June 2010 - 15:06
Paul.
I think the dutch cross in my girls was very good. I have Clip vom Roten Falken in them,
I get very good civil drive without the Manic energy, they are very focused, which is what
I love to see. I was very lucky to get this old breeding out of Clip. They are Clip bred to a
Larco PDT sister. I have been looking more lately to NVBK and dutch lines for civil drive
without manic energy for soundness. My dogs are already extreme jumpers, with Kung fu
skills. I want to maintain the good mind with civil drive. In reference to show
there conformation is as good as it gets, they are beautiful to watch when they work.
Right now I am looking at dogs off of Veomar, just like Peter. But I am in no hurry to breed.
Maybe next year or the year after.
I think the dutch cross in my girls was very good. I have Clip vom Roten Falken in them,
I get very good civil drive without the Manic energy, they are very focused, which is what
I love to see. I was very lucky to get this old breeding out of Clip. They are Clip bred to a
Larco PDT sister. I have been looking more lately to NVBK and dutch lines for civil drive
without manic energy for soundness. My dogs are already extreme jumpers, with Kung fu
skills. I want to maintain the good mind with civil drive. In reference to show
there conformation is as good as it gets, they are beautiful to watch when they work.
Right now I am looking at dogs off of Veomar, just like Peter. But I am in no hurry to breed.
Maybe next year or the year after.
by MaggieMae on 02 June 2010 - 15:06
Keith said --
I agree that that's a joke that fits the description of some show dogs but you seem to be under the impression that it isn't possible for a dog to be beautiful, have correct structure and temperament and do good work. I have had and have worked with both show and working lines and each has its strengths and weaknesses. While I understand why many people who train with dogs prefer working lines because the dogs tend to be harder and sharper, ergo, easier to train and more difficult to screw up, it could also be argued that those traits are not indicative of the calm, stable demeanor that are hallmarks of the breed. To suggest that there are no show line dogs whose work is every bit as good as working line dogs, however, is ridiculous. The division, in my experience, in less about a difference in the dogs than it is about the attitudes of many of the people who own and train with them. Try to avoid painting the world with such a broad brush.
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Very well said Keith.
I agree that that's a joke that fits the description of some show dogs but you seem to be under the impression that it isn't possible for a dog to be beautiful, have correct structure and temperament and do good work. I have had and have worked with both show and working lines and each has its strengths and weaknesses. While I understand why many people who train with dogs prefer working lines because the dogs tend to be harder and sharper, ergo, easier to train and more difficult to screw up, it could also be argued that those traits are not indicative of the calm, stable demeanor that are hallmarks of the breed. To suggest that there are no show line dogs whose work is every bit as good as working line dogs, however, is ridiculous. The division, in my experience, in less about a difference in the dogs than it is about the attitudes of many of the people who own and train with them. Try to avoid painting the world with such a broad brush.
---------------
Very well said Keith.
by zdog on 02 June 2010 - 16:06
I too have spent a good number of years with both, and I have seen some very nice showline dogs. But they aren't that plentiful. To say there isn't a difference and an obvious one, well it isn't really accurate.
Sure there are some showlines that could look better if they weren't rushed thru training, or had handlers that actually trained them but the differences are obvious from the time they are puppies chasing rags till they grow up and mature.
All of my working lines are always stable and can be as calm as they need to be given any sitation, whether its running like crazy all day on 200 acres of woods and pasture, or laying around all day in the house cause I don't feel like moving.
Sure there are some showlines that could look better if they weren't rushed thru training, or had handlers that actually trained them but the differences are obvious from the time they are puppies chasing rags till they grow up and mature.
All of my working lines are always stable and can be as calm as they need to be given any sitation, whether its running like crazy all day on 200 acres of woods and pasture, or laying around all day in the house cause I don't feel like moving.
by Keith Grossman on 02 June 2010 - 16:06
"To say there isn't a difference and an obvious one, well it isn't really accurate."
I never implied that there wasn't a difference.
I never implied that there wasn't a difference.
by Mystere on 02 June 2010 - 17:06
Keith,
I agree that there are some show dogs who can do the work. However, the problem, IMO, is that so many (the vast majority?) are not trained to work to their abilities at all. They are rushed through "pretend training" to title in a Midnight Trial somewhere, whether in Germany or in the California sunshine. The "issue" is the handler/owner's priority as to what he/she is willing to spend time on, ring-training or training for trials. I disagree with the apparent "broad brush" that the working line dogs are "sharp" or have temperaments (in general) that are not calm and stable. The working ability and a stable temperament are not mutually exclusive traits.
Zdog,
I agree with you 100%. I have one of those "over the top " extreme drive dogs and he has always been a teddy bear off the field and a complete "layabout" in the house. He is so laid-back at home that he doesn't even ask to be let out--he is happy to let me sleep in, if I want. The bitches, including a half show-line bitch, have never been so considerate or laid back.
I agree that there are some show dogs who can do the work. However, the problem, IMO, is that so many (the vast majority?) are not trained to work to their abilities at all. They are rushed through "pretend training" to title in a Midnight Trial somewhere, whether in Germany or in the California sunshine. The "issue" is the handler/owner's priority as to what he/she is willing to spend time on, ring-training or training for trials. I disagree with the apparent "broad brush" that the working line dogs are "sharp" or have temperaments (in general) that are not calm and stable. The working ability and a stable temperament are not mutually exclusive traits.
Zdog,
I agree with you 100%. I have one of those "over the top " extreme drive dogs and he has always been a teddy bear off the field and a complete "layabout" in the house.
He is so laid-back at home that he doesn't even ask to be let out--he is happy to let me sleep in, if I want. The bitches, including a half show-line bitch, have never been so considerate or laid back.by TessJ10 on 02 June 2010 - 17:06
Keith, great post, and right on target.
Mystere, writes:
"However, the problem, IMO, is that so many (the vast majority?) are not trained to work to their abilities at all. They are rushed through "pretend training" to title in a Midnight Trial somewhere, whether in Germany or in the California sunshine. The "issue" is the handler/owner's priority as to what he/she is willing to spend time"
Not sure why you said "however," since I think that IS the problem - the upbringing and (lack of) training, not what the dog intrinsically is. I was recently at a seminar and 2 of the best dogs were show line dogs. They smoked all but a very few of the working line dogs there. Why? Because their handlers actually gave them good SchH training. They were the real deal. Had they grown up in a show-only home this wouldn't have happened. The seminar was a Bernhard Flinks seminar and he said repeatedly that if all the show line dogs worked the way these dogs worked, he wouldn't be saying the things he says about show lines.
Mystere, writes:
"However, the problem, IMO, is that so many (the vast majority?) are not trained to work to their abilities at all. They are rushed through "pretend training" to title in a Midnight Trial somewhere, whether in Germany or in the California sunshine. The "issue" is the handler/owner's priority as to what he/she is willing to spend time"
Not sure why you said "however," since I think that IS the problem - the upbringing and (lack of) training, not what the dog intrinsically is. I was recently at a seminar and 2 of the best dogs were show line dogs. They smoked all but a very few of the working line dogs there. Why? Because their handlers actually gave them good SchH training. They were the real deal. Had they grown up in a show-only home this wouldn't have happened. The seminar was a Bernhard Flinks seminar and he said repeatedly that if all the show line dogs worked the way these dogs worked, he wouldn't be saying the things he says about show lines.
by ShelleyR on 02 June 2010 - 17:06
The biggest problem with show dogs bred in this country, IMO, is that the owners making the breedings do not understand temperament in the first place, only objectively assessed conformation of their dogs (sometimes) which they can see and cmpare visually. Few show line breeders actualy train and titled dogs, and don't take the time, have the interest in learning anything about true working temperament and working ability. Thus they continue to breed marginally suitable, or UNsuitable dogs for the working tests, send them off for paper titles, and then wonder why they fail the working tests at the Sieger Shows.
Notice I didn't say ALL US showline breeders, just most of them. It takes years of concentrated study, if not hand's on experience, to judge temperament in a GSD.
Shelley
Notice I didn't say ALL US showline breeders, just most of them. It takes years of concentrated study, if not hand's on experience, to judge temperament in a GSD.
Shelley
by Mystere on 02 June 2010 - 18:06
Quote by Shelley:
"The biggest problem with show dogs bred in this country, IMO, is that the owners making the breedings do not understand temperament in the first place, only objectively assessed conformation of their dogs (sometimes) which they can see and cmpare visually. Few show line breeders actualy train and titled dogs, and don't take the time, have the interest in learning anything about true working temperament and working ability. Thus they continue to breed marginally suitable, or UNsuitable dogs for the working tests, send them off for paper titles, and then wonder why they fail the working tests at the Sieger Shows.
Notice I didn't say ALL US showline breeders, just most of them. It takes years of concentrated study, if not hand's on experience, to judge temperament in a GSD. "
BINGO!! IF the breeders did ever take the leash in hand and do even the training for a Bh, it would open up a world of enlightenment with respect to the issues of nerve, temperament, and working ability. They would have an idea of what it was they were actually breeding and what the dogs bring to the table, other than 45 degree shoulders, pigment and tail/ear sets. But, that all goes back to my point about priorities and not putting any time into actually training the dogs. I know of NOT ONE of the primary show breeders in my region who does one second's worth of training the dogs they breed, or the ones they produce. Not one. Yet, some of them have three and four litters on the ground at a time, mulitple breeding bitches (sometimes numbering in the double digits), and have never held a leash in recorded history.
One dog entered in the Working Class at the Sieger Show this year I know has been worked and trained since puppyhood by a very dedicated handler/owner who moved Heaven and Tarknin to get the training she needed for her dog. She put all the schutzhund titles on the dog herself. Those attending the show and the protection, keep an eye out for Odin, owned and handled by Natalie Gonzales. He is an example of what can be done with a show line dog, IF one decides to put in the time and effort necessary to train and title.
"The biggest problem with show dogs bred in this country, IMO, is that the owners making the breedings do not understand temperament in the first place, only objectively assessed conformation of their dogs (sometimes) which they can see and cmpare visually. Few show line breeders actualy train and titled dogs, and don't take the time, have the interest in learning anything about true working temperament and working ability. Thus they continue to breed marginally suitable, or UNsuitable dogs for the working tests, send them off for paper titles, and then wonder why they fail the working tests at the Sieger Shows.
Notice I didn't say ALL US showline breeders, just most of them. It takes years of concentrated study, if not hand's on experience, to judge temperament in a GSD. "
BINGO!! IF the breeders did ever take the leash in hand and do even the training for a Bh, it would open up a world of enlightenment with respect to the issues of nerve, temperament, and working ability. They would have an idea of what it was they were actually breeding and what the dogs bring to the table, other than 45 degree shoulders, pigment and tail/ear sets. But, that all goes back to my point about priorities and not putting any time into actually training the dogs. I know of NOT ONE of the primary show breeders in my region who does one second's worth of training the dogs they breed, or the ones they produce. Not one. Yet, some of them have three and four litters on the ground at a time, mulitple breeding bitches (sometimes numbering in the double digits), and have never held a leash in recorded history.
One dog entered in the Working Class at the Sieger Show this year I know has been worked and trained since puppyhood by a very dedicated handler/owner who moved Heaven and Tarknin to get the training she needed for her dog. She put all the schutzhund titles on the dog herself. Those attending the show and the protection, keep an eye out for Odin, owned and handled by Natalie Gonzales. He is an example of what can be done with a show line dog, IF one decides to put in the time and effort necessary to train and title.
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