Look GARD, it's a real dog!!! - Page 9

Hey Bob,

I don't know why you are taking this personal? You are missing my point.

I don't have any problem with Sch. None at all. It is not my cup of tea but I have no problem with it. What I am saying goes for any person or trainer Ring sport, PSA, KNPV, whatever........who chooses to veiw or judge a dog from a single point of view.

We can agree to disagree. You are saying this dog has some sort of temperment/nerve problem. My opinion is you are mistaken and your opinion is based on a lack of experience with the malinios breed and in training outside of Sch. That's all.

Like I said before, you are one of the ones here who is usually level headed. I can't force you to see things my way nor do I wish to. Just stating my opinion, which has video that clearly affirms that opinion, and challenging you and anyone else veiwing this thread to try and see the forrest through the trees. (or Sch blind as the case may be)

One thing I have learned during my time in the dog world is people don't need to learn something new if they already know it all.

Take care and happy training

Well Bob
It seems we cannot read a Dog now, if that is so then its time i packed all dogs in having owned Dogs of many breeds over 60 years and trained a lot to a high degree of Obed and even sheep herding,
But as the Guys say here we cannot read a Dog after all that time, But i wonder who are the real clueless ones,
But the worse part of it is i am working with some of the best Dog handlers in Belgium and yet i cannot read into anything, That statement makes me a real thicko regarding Dogs
How many of you Guys saying this Train around 300 training sessions a year and go and see some 25 plus Sch Trials a year, Do you not think i see Dogs of all sorts during this time,
I have handled aggressive Dogs not of the G.S breed but other breeds like rotweilers a bull terrier x, three dogs who were really  would attack if you just looked at them, but i got them to a stable state after time and bought them into line over the years
Time will tell who is correct or not, if the handler does not learn to control the dog and learn more herself then the dog will get worse and deteriorate and as i have said before its the dog who suffers in the end not the handler
Time for me to bow out of these Sch Threads and sit back and learn from you Experts of the Schutzund world over there in the USA
Steve

I have just seen the video and I agree 100% with the posts from Steve.   The dog is unsuitable for this type of work, the helper should know  better and the handler should not be allowed to engage in this work without considerably more experience.  Also the handler clearly knew before this video what this dog is capable of doing and, I hate to think what would have happened if it turned it's attention to the spectators who are sitting so close to the action.

Mackenzie

If this is a dog that are very new to this exercize, how can you blame the dogs"nerves" if it instinctively protect itself from a treath? Would be a different story if the dog was finished for a SCH-trail and without reason attacked a passive helper.

Wow, I am just amazed at how many people expect a DOG to know what diciplin he is training in Today! As if the dog was clearly lectured on the B&H before he was sent in and knew the rules? I'm astounded but shouldn't be, at the Sch junkies who really think, dogs shouldn't bite flesh period. This is the mentalty that lead to soft worthless crap in the breed. Steve the dog doesn't know a B&H and it was explained he has done much harder work, why would we fault him for protecting himself from a blow? If your issue is with him taking the nip at the sleeve coming in...we better cut 90% of the Sch competetors period, because I can't count how many dogs I have seen take cheap shots in training. That is why we train is it not? To show the dog the rules and stop unwanted behaviour? I don't see a nerve issue or see where anyone else could in that posted video.

Mac:

             I don,t believe Steve or myself said this dog was unsuitable for the work. A couple of things I do think is the handler is unsuitable for the dog(at this time) as I,ve watched the video she never checks in on the dog never before the dog is sent or while it is working very bad and dangerous habit especialy one showing sign,s of stress wheteher it is handler induced or training induced or just the nature of the animal. 

A decent trainng director would be on  this in a heart beat (or should be). The inital bark and hold the dog is back farther then I like to see but at the time it is also on lead so partly this could be again inexperience of the handler or the dog not posseing the courage or experience to be in a closer proper posistion. (again my opinion). 

Then the second part of the clip, (in my opinion) The handler never checks the dog there is no communication between handler and helper and in my opinion the dog appears unsetteled, the dog  is released(or escapes it is unclear on the vid) and rushes the helper the sleeve presentation is bad but the grip is very close to the end of the sleeve and shallow is it bad presentation or nerve or inexperience of the dog(that seemes to be the BIG question here) as the helper brings his left leg forward the dog is already leaving the sleeve and the right hand goes into motion and the dog reacts to movement(precevied threat or nerver issue?) and again goes for a second bite. In my opinon here is where the real armchairing comes to play my self included.  Were left with a individual interpitation of the outcome. several here feel that the dog is showing great valour and instinct going after the attacking hand(opinion) I my self feel no matter what moved the dog would of tracked it Hand with a stick,handler trying to retrieve dog, someone walking past blind on the working side of the dog, (again my opinion) but 1 thing is for sure something is going to get bitten so what were left with is personnel interpition of the event. 

I don,t care for the attitude of the initial post "REAL DOG" stuff frosts my mug, I don,t care for the presented attitude of the vid of the handler celebrating the event(now i,m told it,s some european machismo thing) it sets a bad example for the training(notice I didnt say sport) .

It comes down to each ones precieved notion of what a "REAL DOG" is I don,t feel a real dog has to open up a helper to prove his worth I feel a real dog is focused on the task, powerful in the work and clear as to his mind and strong in his presence. these 4 things will tell you if this is a real dog. 

   

                

4pack:

Yes there are soft dogs in Schutzhund nobody is going to argue that just as there are nothing but nerve bag PSA,PPD, dogs all thru there respective venues. So I supose in your book that as long as a dog bites flesh then it,s a good dog? 

I agree with last two posts of Bob entirely, Still 4 pack does not understand as do not the others on here except for Bob and Mackenzie they are the only two people except myself
The Dog was NOT sent in to grab the sleeve of the Packweker, it was sent to bark and hold meaning to warn the helper to stay where he is and of course once the helper moves his arm after the barking sequence then the dog will go for the Sleeve, BUT again this dog went from the handler straight for the sleeve Do you not understand that, evidently not
I am not talking about the dog biting flesh of which many of you silly people lap up and there are some macho guys on here who say i would love to own that dog,  i would not trust them with a bloody poodle of mine with that attitude towards training dogs in Sch
on this thread there was one video and that was the one for us to look at, and i KNOW what the dog should have done but it could not contain itself and instead of barking and guarding it let rip at the helper,
That shows that its nerves got the better of it,  The Helper was stupid in using his unprotected hand he is not good at what he does that has already been said
The main culprit however is the useless handling of the Dog and how it had been or not been trained prior to this event as i said the handler needs training before she should be allowed to handle the dog again, a line should have been kept on the dog
Now if one of the USA team does the same this week i say again you guys will treat it like a bloody hero, but the Dog will pay the price for doing it for sure and the team will be finished, but that is unlikely to happen they are professionals and have pride in what they are doing, and the training they have put into there dogs
For interest i wonder how many of you Guys train regular with a club in the Schutzund Sport according to the above replies very few i would think
,edited
Better still i will have to save up the cash and get one of you guys over here for a Month to teach me how to handle and train my Dogs, Then the Guys over here  can see how a real Dog trainer and handler works
Steve

Bob and Steve, you are talking about training and trained ability of the dog. And I agree with you full heartedly.  Nobody disputes that the trained ability of a dog on the first video is poor for the task put in front of him. That does not mean the dog has poor nerves. Look, I know how hard it is to get dogs for other then sport purpose. I have heard innumerable times cops saying that you never  know if the dog will bite for real until he is in the real situation. Now; SchH , trained ability of the dog, ability of the handler aside here,  I am looking at the dog as a raw product with potential to do Police work after additional and extensive training.This dog can do that type of a work and there is no doubt that he will bite.  I sell dogs to different type of people including families with little kids and elderly people.  And everybody needs different type of a dog. This is not a dog for family, for example and never would be. Someone have raised an issue, that the dog may in heat of fight come up the leash and I agree that at this point of the training he probably could or would. But with additional training this could be possibly corrected and with experienced and knowledgeable handler he could be made into valuable police dog. 
Prager (Hans) 
http://www.alpinek9.com

 Steve and Bob, the problem I have with this post is the fact  this 15 months old Malinois previous training wasn't weighed in your equation. If you watch some of the other videos you will see this dog wasn't train for sch. This dog just a couple of weeks prior was training to bite a passive man in waist to chest deep water. I don't have a problem with the dog biting the helper. Alex shouldn't have thrown a punch at the dog. Alex, breed the dog that bit him. He should have been aware of it's training level. It's not like he couldn't see the handler wasn't doing her job. Alex competed at the 2009 FCI World's coming in 90th. He should have known this dog wasn't ready for a sch style B&H without the handler right there with him teaching him what to do.  Alex should have slipped the sleeve on the bite near the hand and had a conversation with the young woman handling the dog. He should have her work the dog to get proper control, correct position and targeting on the sleeve. You can't asked a dog to do something  when it doesn't have a clue. 

Steve, you work with some of the best trainers and helpers. If, I came over with a 15-16 month old green dog. A dog that was trained for a different venue. A dog that had no or very little experience with the rules and etiquette of sch.  A dog that might have had 2 or 3 formal training sessions in schutzhund .Would the TD or helper allow me to do what was in the first video. No! I'm sure they would demand the dog was taught the B&H properly. I think Glock with proper training and handling could do schutzhund. Can Alex and the handler learn from this yes. They should be thankful it wasn't much worse.