Got yourself an aloof GSD? Its your own fault - Page 9

Well... how interesting, you extol the virtues of the SV and in the next breath... midnight Sch!  I don't breed anymore, it's been nearly 12 years.

Every dog I owned was worked.  Do try not to put words in my mouth, I've never said grip work was unimportant, just that it's not all there is to any dog!  How many different dogs have you had success with?  Ever tried a showline, of any kind?

Your friend was not thinking about using the (Sch2) dog in question... just bashing as usual.  Inever mentioned breedworthy either, just that he was a very beautiful dog that must be capable of some sort of work to have a Sch2.  However, your comments on dodgy trials leaves that wide open, sadly.

4pack:

For all your personnel advanced experience maybe you would do well to say Hi how are you, geuss what there is lots to learn from pleasentries and small talk about the breed and personnel experience with there dogs so next time you don,t like a post or two take a breath and count to 10 (if you went to 11 you would have to take your shoes off).

Actually yes I have had 2 showline dogs. Bought my first one when I lived in Mannheim and imported  my second 3.5 years ago. Sch3 KKL 1 for life. I loved them both but wasn't "Impressed" by them.

The point is...do you trust what you read/or what you see for yourself. People who trust titles have a tendancy to come back feeling ripped off or dissapointed (happened to me). People need to start looking deeper than what is on paper, lest we hear their whinning on here later down the road. Fact of the matter is...dodgy trials, have and still do happen. See a dog with your own eyes before purchasing or breeding to it, end of story. If you do not, keep your tears to yourself, I can no longer feel sorry for you folks.

I'm by no means dissing any sport or activite a dog can be worked in. I'd like to do agility one day for fun. However it is not a test I would use for picking a breeding animal, it is a fun activity period ( I am all about having fun with my dogs). I would in the least hope someone would take the time and $ to see a GOOD TD who can work and evaluate your dog in some sort of grip work, before you go breeding the uterus out of it. It's very comman practice over in Europe to not waste time and money on the females, especially in the Malinois breed but by no means are the dogs untested by some knowledgable people. I don't claim to be so arrogant or knowledgable and wish more folks could look in the mirror.

It's a sad case that everyone in the dog world "thinks" they have that knowledge and can make that call. Nothing sickens me more than seeing untitled parented pups, being sold at the same price as quality titled parented pup. What a slap in the face insult, to those who do it the right way. I know I know, (the buyers can just steer clear of those litters if they don't like it) but maybe just maybe, some people could have a little pride in what they do, instead of making excusses, "well so and so does it."

I know more than a few people who don't or wont breed because they don't have the right dogs yet, they are willing to wait until they find those dogs. I'm a firm believer in " if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch." To some it isn't about $, loving their pet or other selfish reasons. They forgo and sacrafice for the breed truely and THEY have my respect.

Oh, my. I am coming in late but I will throw my 2 cents in here as well.

First, from what I have gathered of Sueincc posts, over a long time, she is a true protector of the breed, loves the GSD deeply and feels very strongly about upholding a standard. ANYONE who loves the GSD should be capable of respecting that. 

Yes, there are many dogs out there with SchH titles that didn't earn them. And there are many dogs titled in obedience/agility/whatever that have more backbone and drive than a "bought and paid for" SchH3.  Now, allow me to explain the difference.

The dog without any SV breeding titles has NO proof that it is potentially breed quality. None. Scroll up and read the standard again, those of you who conveniently ignored it on this thread. I repeat: Scroll up and read the standard again.

Now, that SchH or HGH titled dog...maybe he earned it, maybe he didn't. But in the title there is a possibility of PROOF of breedworthiness. So what does the responsible, educated breeder do? They go SEE FOR THEMSELVES!  I'm so sick of the "non title" crowd telling the "title" crowd that we will breed to anything with a title. That's BS and insulting. Out of every 30-40 titled dogs I see, I can count on one hand the ones I would breed to.  Do you understand, the SV standard is the MINIMUM for people like myself and I daresay, sue as well?

Now, I have trained plenty of working line dogs, show line dogs, american showline dogs, and backyard breeder garbage. I've had my hands on more GSDs of every kind than the average pet owner, or even AKC ob/agi competitor will probably ever meet in their LIFE.  I have a UD dog, and she has PP training. She's damn good. I'm hoping to do a VCD1 with her this year.  I know damn well what it takes to do AKC work, it is IN NO WAY a quality breed test for the German Shepherd Dog. 

That said- I would much rather see someone who has a CD or a FEMA cert or something breeding their OFA'ed dog than the moron whose dogs rot in the yard their whole life and do nothing. At least the former has some stability in the public.  But please, call a spade a spade and do not try to say you are breeding to the standard.

4pack, You lump us all in the same category, without any justification.  How can we move forward from that?

Bitework reveals a lot about the character of the dog that NO other discipline does.

Defense, Prey & Fight drives

Threshold

Hardness, trainability

Grip quality

Ability to handle stress, nerve, decoy threat

Clear headedness, handler aggression

The title you get at the end doesn't tell you that much but the process of training and trialling the dog tells you what you need to know abut the type of dog that you are dealing with. Using that information, working line breeders then select a good match to produce. You can water down the selection by ignoring bitework but this gives you only half the story of what the true dog's character is like.

A dog doing obedience, agility, tracking is never going to be challenged the way he will be when doing bitework. How do you gauge how much defense and prey the stud and brood have - by jumping over a hurdle and retrieving a dumbbell?

However, I don't expect the keyboard warriors out there to know this. The only "character" tests these keyboard warriors subject their dog to is whether they come when recalled in a park. Lets see if their so called well bred dogs crumble under the gunfire test or a decoy running at them in the long flight.

Sueincc - i agree with you.

I lumped who together? I don't believe I pointed any fingers or named names. I leave it open for others to decide who is who.

Thank You KC for saying it in a NICER way. I'm in no mood for niceties today. Sugar coating a shit, is still a shit.