SV to Reinstate Long Coats in 2010 - Page 9

Yes, He is a fine little fellow, very brave and intelliegent, I had him on the training field on thursday evening just playing around, The older Dogs were finished  on obediance and the Pakwerker was kitting up for the Protection

The Pup was standing about a yad off the one Metre Jump, next second he just jumped over it,  not told or anything because i normally take a foot off it for him, But he never touched the top

. We walked along to the A Frame not to go up it he was standing in front  it, the next instance he was up and over at its full height, 

 I called him back and he came back over it from the other way, The Fellow i was talking to at the time could not believe what he was seeing I will not let him make a practise of doing that at his age, now 9 months But it shows how agile and keen he is

My other Pup Fred now 16 months goes for his BH next Month

Steve

If introducing diversity to the breed, is the intent, I'm not so sure that goal would be achieved.  Analysis of single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs, pronounced "snips") are used to measure the diversity of DNA sequences among genomes.  However, when these measures are used in scientific studies, whether or not the species is in Hardy–Weinberg equilibrium (HWE) is often forsaken of consideration.  This table from the following study shows the percentage of SNPs within HWE (the gray bar), and most breeds were to be found within proper equilibriulm, and the GSD marginally so.

Hardy–Weinberg Expectations in Canine Breeds

This study further suggests that "It is also likely that splitting these breeds by their phenotypic traits could improve the HWE", and conversely, I'd imagine by re-introducing longcoats to the GS breed may be the "final straw" to throw it out of equilibrium.

Most lectures I've attended and studies and position papers I've read  seem to agree with daryl's conclusion above.  I wanted to ask daryl - what percentage of SNPs in HWE is considered "within proper equilibrium"? Thanks.

If the SV allows LSC back in, will they also require DNA identification  of the dog's genetic coat status?With DNA identification, some GSD's that appear to have longcoats are testing positive as carriers, not longcoats. It is happening now in this breed and others. I've personally heard from at least a dozen whose dogs tested positive for being carriers and they fully expected they would be positive for being genetic longcoats. 3 were GSD's. The modifiers play a big role in the  phenotype, the final length and the presence or absence of undercoat. As far as I know, there is no DNA test available to identify those modifiers and I haven't heard of any researchers who are currently working on that. It's not just a simple recessive that dictates the dog's phenotype. That would explain why some swear that they have bred 2 longcoats and got some stockhairs. On the other hand, some that tested positive as genetic coats actually have shorter guardhairs than some that tested positive for being carriers. It seems that the plushes should test positive as carriers, some will be DNA positive for being coats. Using them in a breeding program keeps the long coat gene in the pool anyway. The argument that "reintroducing" the longcoat will increase diversity really doesn't  make much sense to me  since the gene has never been bred out in the first place. As far as I know most of the top dogs in Germany carry it recessively, some would probably test positive for being genetic coats so they would pass the gene on to 100% of their progeny. Aren't many of the popluar studs plushes (also carriers or genetic coats themselves)?  Longcoated GSD's are not always WYSIWYG so judges are going to miss some, some are going to slip through the cracks, especially if they are trimmed before their breed surveys and some that are genetic carriers could easily be misidentified phenotypically as longcoats. Now that the DNA test is available, it might be prudent to use it.

Speaknow, my talking about long soft coats not being weather resistant was meant in a good way, to get people with long coats to think about how snow, rain, cold weather and heat can affect their dogs' coats. When the dust cleared, I was feeling pretty foolish to have even dared to breach that subject here.  For sure you won't be hearing me ever talk about that subject again .

Steve, it sounds as if you have a puppy with great potential. Agility and the will to serve is so important in this breed. He should get his BH in short order and go on to bigger things.

After I read what I posted I realized that it sounds as if I think  the longcoat gene is the only gene that could be gained by approving LSC for breeding. Certainly many other genes would be involved in addition to the long coat gene and modifiers.

Personally I do not think it is the real case of the long hairs being  recognised as qualified to breed by the Powers to  beas to whether it will do determent to the G.S Breed

I think it is a case at the present time is that too many inferior Dogs are being bred from. no one has raised this point up to date,

Now what is a Dog Qualified to the postition to be bred from

Well a working Line G.S should have all the best Quaslifications it can obtain. and because they are now bred primaly for Competition work it should have the higest Grades in that Field. plus perfect Hips and Elbows that would be my No 1

Then anything else which will make it an outstanding Dog for future reproudction, i..e it Breeding

Not many will agree with these points because many of you breed from the Dogs you have

Steve

Everyone makes their own judgements and decisions about what dogs should be bred and what dogs will be bred.

Is there a cut off as to qualifications?  Should, for instance, only Schutzhund II and III dogs be bred?  Should only dogs with certain scores be bred?  Should only titled dogs be bred?  Should only VA dogs be bred?  Should only dogs that are the exact median as far as height and weight be bred?  Should only dogs with "excellent" rated hips be bred?  Should dogs that throw offspring with a undescended testicle or long coats periodically, be bred?  Should dogs that produce soft ears be bred? Should only the finest of the finest be bred?

Or, should decent representatives of the breed be bred, even with minor flaws here and there, with the hope being that over the long haul, the breed will remain constant or even better slightly and slowly, and maintain a good diversity of genes?  Should more attention be given to only breeding healthier dogs and less attention be given to abilities, in a long term outlook at improving the health problems first, and then working on the abilities and structure/conformation aspects?

So many questions and so many opinions.

I have enough life experience to know that if you have just two people discussing just about anything, there will be differences of opinion, so how can millions agree on a course of action?  Someone (the SV?) has to make the hard decisions.  But, when they do, there will be those that agree and those that disagree.

Personally, just like my President, the Pope, my Clergy, my wife, me best friend, etc., may tell me their thoughts and give guidance, I will make my own decisions.  Same with the SV.  They give me guidance, but we make our own decisions.

It would really be an eye opener if the SV tomorrow stated that their new guidelines are that only Schutzhund III males and Schutzhund II females, with ONLY "excellent" rated hips and elbows, be "authorized" through them, to receive breed worthy status.

Steve,  Goran doesn't have an undercoat?  I'm surprised because he looks like he does.  Anyway, if you are saying there are too many inferior dogs being bred and that minimum requirements for breeding are health clearances and titles, I agree with you 100%.  In the USA,  for example, dogs are not required to have good hips/elbows,  working ability, or even good conformation.  In fact, much of AKC show breeders have worked hard to soften the temperment of the breed, and exagerate the angulation, etc..  The result is  american line GSDs  no longer look or act  like what we know as GSDs.  In fact many of us wish they would break off entirely as their own breed, ASS (american show shepherd).   I think many breeders of the ASS are shocked and embarrased (at least they should be) when they pull their heads out of their own ass and get a look at what a true GSD is.  This is why I think following the guidelines set by the SV is very important.