Definition of Civil Drive for Police/P. Protection Dogs - Page 8

I have noticed that many say dogs are started in prey drive.  Is that wrong?  SHould there be a focus on somehing else?  Or should prey only be a piece of the pie when you start out with a puppy?

Ace952,

great question I say balance of pressure/ pressure off, and ability to read a perticular dog properly and be able to time it just right so the dog wins each and every time and learns how to hadle pressure from a very young age. Lets ray a 10 wk old puppy can be pushed a little  by lets say body pressure, frontal but not being stupit about it, .. you know it really just takes a good hepler who has the "feel" for a dog. When I see a good helper I just poin out and say :that is what I am talking about!... LOL
I hope it makes sence.

I have seen a very nice puppy turned into prey monster: blank yappy prey monster that would bite out of prey but was never confortable to actually show any fight.. nothing, It was all created by prey training only.  This dog was kinda extreme result of not very good training.

We hope to have a video made in the next few weeks to illustrate "our version" of Civil work for a PSD/PPD.

When it is done I will post it on a new thread, this is not an attempt to advertise. Just hoping to clear some things up with a video.

Thanks

     very interesting thread,,,,lets see more like this one.....

ace , the plain  and simple reason every dog is started to bite over prey , is that you cannot work a puppy/very young dog , over his defence , you want a dog to mentally mature before starting to put pressure on him

biting over prey involves no pressure and is like playing a game to the  dog

@Ace....IMHO

Prey drive is the drive a canine hunts and kills in.  Developed correctly it can be a near equally "serious" drive to defense- not "play".

Young dog or adult, I start dogs in prey (how mature they are depends on how quickly I progress with incorporating defense)...I want to teach them to punch (bite) and spar without stress, before I teach them to fight. 

Defense is an inherently "unsafe" place for a dog.  It is the drive the canine protects and defends itself, it's den/pups/prey...the canine really just want the offender to go away. 

Defense is a stressful place for a dog.  Prey is a calming and confidence building drive. 

I want to build confidence, forwardness, bite and grip in prey...which will carry over when they are taught to work in defense.

In defense there is stress...stress builds...too much stress creates avoidance, prey releases stress.  Stress threshold is built with training....Channeled correctly the dog should be able to transition between drives smoothly and the decoy can manage his stress (push but not send into aviodance) and raise his threshold. 

Puppies/youngdogs have a lower threshold for avoidance than mature dogs...which is why I'd wait till they are mature for defense. 

It is possible for mature dogs to be started in defense with sucess, but it depends on the dog and the quality of the training.  If not done properly it can screw up a dog.  Starting in prey is alot harder to screw up. 

Prey guarding is a great way to "introduce" defense early on without the stress of defending themselves.  This defensive aggression is rewarded by decoy retreating and acting intimidated by the dog, thus empowering him and building confidence in defense.

With PSD/PPD's I also begin "man targeting" early on...using two bite pillows/ two sleeves...the dog learns to drop the sleeve and re-engage to the decoy on his own...this can be done while the dog is still being worked in prey...as defense is introduced decoy uses a sleeve and hidden sleeve to reward the dog with a bite for dropping the sleeve and engaging in civil aggression...or total civil aggitation (decoy has no equip), while the dog posesses the sleeve and the dog re-engaging is rewarded with decoy retreat/intimidation (building confidence in defense).

GSDfan,
             Great explanation and training theory and in my opinion exactly the way it should be done. Carefully adding pressure and stress accordingly as the dog progresses and matures will prepare the dog for most any venue. As you stated, the key is knowing what  the dogs limits are and not pushing to hard to fast.Keeping the confidence level higher then the stress level in my opinion is the right balance for training in defense work.

Jim,

IMHO, as stated before a civil dog is a description of temperament, not training. A dog can be trained, "civilly

I would take it a step farther and see civil as a zone.....After a dog has worked his job for a time you will
see him in two different characters. One is a relaxed non committed or non work related disposition.
The other is his working zone.....This is true with herding breeds....which is where the GSD came from.

You are right to choose dogs that can rise to the occasion,...without question. There can be no backing down.