e-collar controversy - Page 8

the number one complaint of pet owners is ''cannot get the dog to come off leash'' I have come to terms with the fact I'm not capable of controlling them in this situation sans the collar so I can't tell people any other way to do it,and I'm not gonna tell them just yell they will know your the alpha,,these boneheads are getting the nick on 100 and even then they are resistant..I suppose I could get a long line and pull all of them...look for that one on Americas funniest  home videos

I wonder about that too, Prager.  Maybe that's how some train with the ecollar but I don't think everyone does.  Personally I use leash corrections way before ecollar is ever introduced.  I am the only one who has ever leash corrected my dog.  So  I believe my dog thinks the ecollar stims come from me, but he is astounded that I can reach out and touch him without touching him!!!! 

Or maybe we are just talking semantics?

if you hook the leash to the e collar and cordinate the nick with the pop of the leash its the same effect as the choke chain but requires less action on the part of the handler and is not affected later by the fact the leash goes away , and   I know '' they'' always said do not hook the leash to the e collar...but luckily I never colored inside the lines   

That's the thing, some want the dog to believe the correction comes from the handler, at least I do.  And my dog does, whether it's the ecollar or the leash.  Others use it differently apparently, they want the dog to think he is in control, I just don't quite understand why they want the dog to think he is in control.  I'm not criticizing, I would just like to discuss the reasoning.

OK if you take the leash off , the dog still listens, you say,  but what if you take the collar off. Even police now uses E collars and because the e collar is so instrumental to their training they must by regulation  keep the collar on during the time they are on duty. I think that is worrisome.
I do understand what you are saying about general public not being able to use leash properly. That is the truth. I am however talking about proper relationship with the dog per se. Without crutches or any collars in the end of the training.
Prager Hans 

Hans  everyone is not that skilled of a handler..and to have reliable off leash control with conventional methods takes a long long time the average age of dog competing in National competitions in any discipline is 6-7 years old  and for your average pet owner its never going to happen without tools to reinforce the commands by then the dog has already run off and become  road pizza....................if you post a video of how I can get them to come reliably down at that pond in a group without the collar I will incorporate into the next video

Hans I don't know if your last post was directed to me.  If it was, it is of utmost importance to me that my dog listens to me with or without any collar.  His fusing (for example) was fine tuned and better shaped by adding the ecollar and I must say it is now a thing of beauty to behold (even if I do say so myself) whether he is wearing a collar or not!   I do know people who's dogs must wear the collar at all times in order to behave, but these are not people who have any plans to compete with their dogs. 

There is no silver bullet solution. Come command is one of the three most important commands. You can and should never force the dog to come. I am not positive only trainer freak. But the come needs to be trained with mostly positive reinforcement conditioning. The dog must understand that all good things are coming through trainer. And from puppy hood needs to be conditioned to come . If it is not done from puppy hood then it needs to be started asap in any age.
1. dog with high prey drive after come always play tug of war or other prey game.
2. when you are going to feed the dog say come.
3.when the dog eats say come.
4. when he is already coming say come. 
5.  when you watering the dog say come.
6. Hide from a pup in the woods and when he panics call him come.
7. Never punish the dog after he comes for what ever reason.
and so on.
Prager Hans
http://www.aplinek9.com

and to be more clinical you are using the collar to create '';muscle memory'' a physical knee jerk reaction to your voice that allows to to stop the dog and turn it or whatever,  its powerful and has permenance because your able to pinpoint the exact moment you want the dog to turn without them having a chance to make a judgement call  regarding whether its   convenient at that moment

certainly job one is letting the dog know thats me communicating with you. to me using a long line is like using two cans with a string for a telephone..I am a bit of an uncordinated dofus when it comes to longlines , people that don't have that problem probably have better luck.. once they are collar conditioned and have the ''muscle memory'' you can start to phase out the collar out, once you have enough reinforcement in'' the bank'' you can start making withdrawls without the collar

but saying what a dog is doing and getting him to do what you say  when he is distracted are two completely different things