working VS Show - Page 8

It didn't have extreme drives and drives are not what make a dog livable. It's the temperment that determines whether or not a dog is good in the house, not whether or not it is a high drive dog.  A dog can be extremely high drive, but if he has a clear head, he  can live with a family, etc.. 

Again,

I've just looked at a few posts here and there on this thread.  Don't have time to read them all but I just want to say I have 2 working line dogs living in my house and they know how to act in my house and how to act outside of it.
I have no problems with them in my house ( with the exception of ALL THE DIRT they bring in) but that's a given if you have animals period.  I'll deal with it.  I think if you bring them up in the house and teach them and tell them what you expect of them in the house that is what you will get.  That's what I've got from mine anyway.

Hans said Most TOP Sports Dogs cannot be house dogs -- which is not just any Working Line Dog.

I will add my 2 cents on this thread for what it's worth.  Working vs show, really depends what you like and what your needs are.  I prefer working line dogs, I like the drive, temperament and looks.  With that said I do love a handsome black and red GSD.   Here is a dog owned by a friend that I have worked a couple of times and is great in the bitework: Yang Vom Thermodos http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/127029.html   A dog like him would be welcome in my house anyday.  This dog has a super temperament, high drive and is very social.  A really nice dog. 

For what I like to do (SchH) and the type of dog I like, I prefer working lines, just my preference.  I do appreciate a really nice German SL dog that can work.  I have owned American SL dogs in the past ( long time ago) and German SL and have evolved to working lines.  These days American SL dogs are not my cup of tea. 

Now as far as high drive dogs living in the house, IMO it depends on the dog and the situation.  My dogs have always lived in my house and I've owned some high drive dogs.  My female is a high drive dog, she's getting older now but her drives are still off the chart.  At 10 1/2 she will do the happiest, high drive, focused OB that you could want.  I still do a little bitework with her and lots of tracking.  Bring her home and she's a couch potatoe.  The year I worked straight midnights, she slept on the bed with my wife all night keeping her company and safe.  When I got home the dog slept on the bed with me most of the afternoon.  Now my male is a different story, he bounces off the walls.  He is calm in the police car but not in the house.  He doesn't sit still for very long in the house and drives me crazy.  I can only have him inside for a couple of hours at a time.  If he finds a toy he is non stop.  At  3 1/2 he hasn't clamed down at all.  He has never destroyed or eaten anything in the police car, except my lunch.  At home he would chew on a kong then chew on a table then chew on the kong and switch to a table.  He's like a shark, I think he just tests things with his mouth.  So as a younger dog he was not left alone in the house.  Now, I bring this dog in the house with me everyday but when he starts to drive me crazy he goes out.  I don't want to start getting on this dog for house manners or bringing a toy to me 3,000 times in a row.  I want his time in the house to be a stress relieve for him and pleasant.  I may put him in a down and let him chill for a while but that's about it.  I try to avoid putting pressure on him for non work issues. 

So two high end, high drive working line dogs that are completely different in the house.   I think it really depends on the dog. 

JMO,

Jim

Jim,

I had a dog like that, brought me her toy non stop until she fell asleep with it in her mouth.
(hehe - your 3000 times is probably not an exaggeration) 

She would put it at my feet, look at it then me, it then me, it then me, for a half hour straight till I finally gave up and did something with her. 

She would also spin in circles.

I've been looking for another GSD with that quality. (or at least some of it)

She was German show - working mix.

She also did bite work with the same enthusiasm.

Lee

I'm coming into this late because this topic make my head hurt, but here goes anyway:

Now I have done some SchH and AKC obedience, also some PPD work with my dogs. My broader base of experience come from 10 years as a professional trainer. Am I doing sport work? No. But I am working with owner after woner on getting their dog, many of them with behavioral issues, to get their dog to live successfully in the home. If you don't think trying to work out overprotectiveness at the door, dog aggression, fear issues, etc., or working a dog for PPD does not show the character of a dog as much as a sport field, read no further, my opinion will mean nothing to you. 

I train LOTS of GSDs. Show line, work line, "ASS", BYB, puppy mill/pet store...you name it. I've seen $350 pups with no papers be harder and stronger than dogs from top breeders.  I've seen showline dogs with drive, natural focus, speed and intensity in their obedience that would make any national competitor proud. I've seen workingline puppies with ten times the structural correctness of some showline puppies.  I have also seen terrible nerves, no drives to speak of, instability, nastiness in each and every type of GSD. Oh, Rik, I know plenty of showline K9, too!

I have the distinct benefit of working with the GSDs that the breeders pawn off into pet homes. I see more than just what the breeders pick and choose for the public to see at events. 

I have met some WL dogs that were unsuitable for family living, but guess what- I've seen SL dogs with the same damn problem! I have learned to judge the individual dog, as you will have stars and crappers from both sides of the fence.

I also would like to ask- how many of those who revile the showlines have ever trained one yourself and titled it? Anyone can shake their head is disgust at BSZS performances, but have you actually TRIED it yourself? Please understand I DO NOT excuse crap work or weak dogs, but I also won't condemn anything I haven't tried myself.

Showline dogs are very different to train. WL dogs want to GO GO GO and they will work happily for the joy of working. You have a tug in your hand, they're ready to go. A SL is often more handler sensitive, takes things personally, and can be very slow to mature. In my experience they work best with one handler they are strongly bonded to, and do not do well being shuffled from one handler to another- which sadly is what most of them go through! Take a good SL dog from a baby and h.o.t. it to the end, and it will go to the ends of the earth for you. I'm not saying a good WL won't, don't get me wrong. But to understand why so many SL perform poorly you have to understand they work differently, mature differently, and are much less likely to get what they need out of training than a WL gets.

I was enjoying this thread till I read one contributer calling Hans an idiot. This is not good for the forum, as I hear this forum lost many knowledgable contributers due to such language and behavior, what if we loose Hans and he decides to stop being active on this forum and a few more people as good as he is decide to quit, what will be left in this forum? People like me with hardly any knowledge and people with loose tongues. Please treat others as you like them to treat you. It is your right to have a different opinion but you do not have the right to insult others with false judgements.

Ibrahim

KCzaja,

I appreciate what you had to say, it is of good value as it is your prospective from true experience.

Ibrahim