E Collars on 3.5 mo. old puppies??? - Page 8

To me this is abuse on a dog so young. We all fell bad for the post concerning Bravos, what about this? ASSHOLES!!!!

Have we not (in the many, many, many e-collar threads here) determined it is not the tool but the use of it that dictates what is or is not abuse?

I have heard (not witnessed) people who use the e-collar like a clicker. They put it on a very low stim and mark the behavior.  I know the Sit Means Sit method is something along those lines and they do put collars on very young dogs. You may or may not like that system but I have seen, with my own eyes, some magnificant OB and control with dogs trained in this method.

Christopher says.....


I especially try to stay away form “I would never….” Every dog trainer that is worth their salt knows that there are too many variables to close ones self off to a certain

Well said, and so true.

As to the particulars of the OP situation my only answer is I DON’T KNOW.

IT is funny you said that. I just told my group how seldom you will hear a trainer say this. They all have a magic answer to everything. I told them you will hear me say, "I don't know, but we will figure it out. I will throw out a suggestion here or their on this board and stipulate I can't know cuz I haven't seen the dog. But there are alot of damn good trainers on here that seem to be able to do so.

OGBS: Louise, if you advocate using an e-collar on 3.5 month old puppy I now understand the answer to your question from a few months ago as to why Ingodds Albert growled at you last year at the USA Sieger Show.

What's is that remark supposed to mean? I wasn't even at the damned SS in San Jose--I wisely stayed at home. However, this observation about Albert's growling at people and at other dog's was made by someone that I know and respect.

While I've never put an e-collar on a 3.5-old pup, I don't discount the efficacy of its humane use in the hands of a truly skilled e-collar "guru".

You would be surprised how much learning a pup can do at an early age. I had and Am-bred GSD in 1966 who was doing Novice obedience work at 3.5 months--without compulsion. She completed her UD at 13 months and earned her TD shortly thereafter--with only 6 weeks of training. FYI, I had majored in psychology with an emphasis on learning theory and behavior modification.

My 10-year-old male (SchH3, IPO3) earned his BH at 13 months--all with food and clicker training--never did any training on leash.

Different dogs have different training needs. My 8-year-old male (SchH3, IPO3)--1/2 brother to the above dog--had his own agenda early on--was always thinking--and trying to invent a better "mouse trap". It takes a skilled trainer to recognize differences and to train accordingly.

i believe this conversation should be repeated often and in great depth because with a tool like an ecollar it is just way too easy to "get it wrong" and inadvertently abuse it even when you start out with the best and most genuine intentions.
here's an excerpt from an article entitled "About Aggression: Learn to read your dog and recognize there is no quick fix." by Ed Bailey http://www.gundogmag.com/training/aggression_0502/
...
Another overly used and badly misused--if a little is good, a lot is much better--pain source training tool that produces redirected aggression is the shock collar or what is now euphemistically referred to as the e-collar. And why not, the e-prefix has become the buzz letter in selling. But a shock is a shock is a pain. At subliminal levels, repeated shocks summate and though it might take 10 or more, sooner or later it hurts. My good and long-time friend Bodo Winterheld used to say, "A shock collar in the hands of a novice is like a straight razor in the hands of a monkey. You can bet there is going to be damage done." We can define that as any pain with an undefined cause can result in redirected aggression.

One of the main selling points of the collar is that the dog doesn't know where the pain comes from. The trainer is not associated with the shock and so is presumed innocent by the dog. At least that's what the instruction books say. But any painful, negative reinforcement to be effective must be associated with some unwanted (by the trainer) behavior and the timing must be impeccable. A few milliseconds off and it is just a painful stimulus with an undefined cause that the dog can't associate with anything specific and so "blames" whomever or whatever is near at the time. The pain is redirected as aggression toward the dog or person that is equal to or below it in the dominance order. So one shock too many or too often, and in some dogs just one shock is one too many, or if the timing is off or if the dog gets zapped by accident, saying "Oops, sorry there old buddy" just won't erase it. The collar is not really an ideal pill for all ills.

the article has a picture and the captions says:

This wirehair cross-breed anticipates a shock from an e-collar. This dog attacked his kennel mate by redirecting pain-induced aggression.


i think, as discussed on another ecollar thread, that an ecollar can be a useful tool to fine tune performance - to "finish" a dog - and i'm sure there are other applications as well but it is not my tool of choice.   i do agree with the "never say never sentiment" and am not against the use of compulsion as a general rule, but the individual dog needs to be assessed before any tough/unforgiving methods are employed.  i really think using an ecollar, or any strong or easily misused compulsion method, on a very young pup (i.e. under 7-9 months old) or on a dog of any age that exhibits anti-social or "disconnected" behavior is a very dangerous option and i would not recommend it.  that said we are all free to raise and train our dogs as we see fit, and the law draws the line we are not to cross not me, i only draw the line for me and my dogs; but i cannot help but see that many want to use the ecollar because it appears to be an "easy solution" with dramatic results and i think this is wrong and dangerous thinking.

yeah, i'm pretty sure I know what freeze means, it means the dog isn't doing anything.  It isn't performing any behaviors,it's just stopped.  It happens when dogs don't know what expected of them, in which case an ecollar isn't probably the right choice for this stage of training, or they have been using the ecollar already and the dog is afraid of the shock and is hoping that by doing nothing, the bad shit won't happen to it.  Either way you're an idiot for continuing down that same path.

Unless of course their definition of "freeze" is that the dog jumps all ove wildly and sits instead of downs and barks at the handler and spins in crazy circles etc, in which case they are an idiot period and still have no place holding the remote for an ecollar.

Please, this thread is very specifically about use of ecollars on a pup, not whether anyone likes ecollars in general.  If you want to talk about why you don't like ecollars please add your opinion to one of the many threads where this has been discussed in depth.  

Here is a recent thread about double ecollars:  ttp://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/276237.html#276546

Here is another ecollar thread:  http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/203252.html#203562

yeah, i'm pretty sure I know what freeze means, it means the dog isn't doing anything….

 

How do you know that the dog is not freezing due to a petite mal seizure cause by the excitement of a new person interacting with him? How do you know that the dog is not freezing due to a phobic response caused by something the handler is wearing? I know that things like this are rare, but I’m experienced enough to know for a fact that unusual things happen.
 

There is a reason why doctors don’t diagnose over the phone.

This assumption that the e-collar is some how harsher than other forms of compulsion is unfounded. In many cases the softer and more sensitive the dog is, the better the e-collar is for using compulsion on that dog. Sometimes compulsion’s affects can be magnified by the relationship between the dog and handler. For example, the handler corrects the dog but because the dog has a bond with the handler it is both an emotional and physical correction. In my opinion this type of correction is the harshest and gets “deeper” into the dog. If a stranger slaps you it is different than someone you love slapping you.  

On the other side the e-collar can emotionally distances the compulsion. This can often allow a handler to use compulsion with a dog that they normally could not. On the flip side the detachment can sometimes make handlers use far too much compulsion and get negative results. Thus the e-collar gets a reputation for being some type of last choice option for compulsion.

yeah a petite mal seizure, that's it.  It's called looking for horses or zebras (also a medical saying), what are you more likely to find?  A pup that has acted normal enough not to warrent any questions about it's behavior in any other circumstances now freezes when asked to do stuff with a trainer that has ecollars on a 3.5 month old puppy, suffers from a brain lesion causing one side of its body to become paralyzed for a time, or that the dog is too scared to move?  I know where I"m putting my money and it isn't on brain lesions.

he could be freezing from phobia by what the trainer is wearing, in which case an ecollar or pinch collar or any collar correction or even harsh verbal correction should be completely OUT THE FREAKIN WINDOW at that point.  You don't correct away a phobia unless you are a buffoon and try to do it anyway.

Whatever the cause of this dog freezing, I can't think of ANY that would make it prudent to have an ecollar or any other type of correction be in the training of this puppy at this point.  The fact that the ecollar is still on the puppy at this point is a pretty strong indicator the handler doesn't know much about dogs to question things and the trainer doesn't have much of a clue either.

I'm well aware that unusual things happen but if somebody says to me over the phone their 10 year old jumped out of a tree from 10 feet up and now can't put pressure on his leg, I"m going to assume the kid broke it and needs to come in for xrays and a cast.  I'm not thinking rare bone tumor. 

Just like an owner without ecollar experience is going to a trainer that tells them to put an ecollar on a 3.5 month old puppy is probably a poor learning situation for the puppy and the new handler.  and the puppy is probably now freezing from terrible training because because the pup probably doesn't understand what is expected of it yet and the handler probably doesn't know how to use an ecollar (which is why they are asking their breeder for help, if they were experienced with an ecollar they would know what they are doing) and the pup is just confused and shut down.