2008 USA Sieger Show - Page 8

Looking at quite a few of the video's, I saw only a handful of dogs that I thought did correct work and would have been able to pass in a real trial.   Going back again and looking at the video's of the top 10, this is what I see:

VA1 - came off the sleeve,

VA2 - good work,

VA3 - constantly dirty on the sleeve,

VA4 - good work,

VA5 - slow outs and then dirty,

VA6 - nice work but the grip on the attack out of the blind was poor,

VA7 - very good work,

VA8 - came off the sleeve,

VA9 - 4 fuss commands on heeling and dirty,

VA10 - very slow outs. 

Out of these 'top' 10, 4 were bred in the US - VA1, VA3, VA5, and VA9.  This is not something we should be proud of.  

This isn't about show vs working lines....it's about the dog being able to do the work for which it was trained and titled, by who it doesn't matter.  The males in the working class are titled....but many looked as if they didn't have a clue.  This was a national event.  If someone is going to bring a dog to participate, then it should be prepared and capable of doing the work.  If it doesn't perform the work correctly, then it doesn't go into the ring...doesn't matter if it has a progeny group or not. 

The only way to get the working ability back is to demand it and accept no less.  JMHO

Marsha Seck

But see, that's just it. I DON'T rely on Sieger show judges. I rely on my own eyes, I don't care what a dog "places" if it's correct and can do the work.  I guess I should've given my definition of a "top" dog. Top, for me, is a dog that can perform.

God bless the gentleman that took the time to shoot and post those videos. I hope it becomes a common practice for both Sieger shows.

I wish someone had recorded the females' performances. There were a few very nice ones. I didn't realize at the time there was no official show videographer. Drat!

SS

KCzaia, you're right, we CAN'T rely on SS judges, and that's the indictment.  As others have said, what an embarrasment for USA and for that judge - there it is for all to see.  And that's a good thing.  You rely on your own eyes.  I agree and when needed I rely on the opinions of people I absolutely trust when they give me their evaluation of a dog I have not seen.

The blessing here is for all the people who fall for the ads and the msg. board hoopla, then wonder why when they pay a fortune for a puppy it's not what they thought it would be.  Now they know not to ever listen to that stuff but to insist on seeing the performance for themselves.

So.  Now it's up to USA & the judges - do they WANT it this way?  Are they happy they're devaluing titles to this point?

I still say entries would eventually go UP if the judging was as it should be (quoting hodie again):

"there is a level of competency that MUST be and should be displayed. Further, when that is NOT demonstrated, the judge MUST have the courage and ability to see it is not there and so judge."

I will go one step further. IF we could get consistent protection routine judging and have it done right, as I have seen it done here at my events, then things would straighten out.  For example, at our events we have had several excellent and hard nosed SV trial, show and Körmeisters (judges who hold all three licenses) who did NOT pass a dog who did not deserve to pass (*coming off the sleeve, not heeling the required distance, not outing etc. etc.) either in trial or the breed survey work. So yes, there are judges who will uphold the rules.

If we had a single or perhaps two Sieger Shows where the rules were strictly enforced, it would indeed set the bar where it should be. Further it would serve notice to all that there is a level of expectation and this is what it is. Further, a video showing correct and incorrect work could be posted for all to see for themselves as a gauge for their own work and to understand what that expectation was. Of course, again, they must be able to discern correct work from that which is not. Yes, attendance would likely be down. So what? If, in the end, the surgery saves the patients' life, then do it.

It is no different than the "crap" all over issue at the SS. I would bet if the rule about picking up after one's dog was enforced, and strict sanctions handed out when violations occurred, including dismissal from the show, I bet in one or two years the practice of people ignoring the "rule" about picking up after the dogs would end. I hold events here on my property. I set the bar high in this regard. And I can tell you that people meet it. They do not leave messes all over, even though there are 40 acres here and they easily could do so. It should be no different at the SS. But when rules are not really meant to be enforced, whether they be behavioral or performance rules, then we deserve what we get, see and eventually smell and step in.

Don,

I agree with you 100%. When you get a dog back after training and titling, it does not mean that you can just go out and perform. Maybe, some people don't grasp that.

I have always promoted the idea to honor two elements in our sport and in the show ring: HOT and junior handlers!

KCzaja, you are absolutely right in your observation. Jealousy rears its ugly head in many ways!

Chris

 Chris,

I am going to put you on the spot. Who do you refer to above when you suggest that one, some or many of these posters are jealous? Jealous of what? Do you really think that the comments here from multiple people on this and the other thread about the Sieger Shows' poor bite work performances are only indicative of their being jealous? You have to be kidding! What is there to be jealous of? I see and read none of that here. But I do read genuine messages of concern after what has been shown to be very poor work with few exceptions. I think most posting here would have been pleased to take pleasure in solid performances and then an appropriate ranking of VA for a reasonable number of dogs. The really sad thing is that other than numbers being presented, the bite work was not much different than in years past.

This is part of the problem Chris and you know it. People here have pointed out legitimate failures to perform, yet a few come and defend what occurred. And, unlike in earlier years, those here saying this display was unacceptable are people who are engaged with and love show lines. So we cannot blame those evil working line breeders either for being so nasty or jealous now can we?

Until and unless all of us get on the same page as to what is and is not an acceptable bite work routine (already clearly specified in the rules) there is no hope that things will ever be better. It has NOTHING to do with jealousy. It is sad if you cannot understand that.  In fact, it is offensive to suggest that anyone here who has posted to date is jealous. I think not. It is not unlike defending people who are unethical. Apparently to some, standards and ethics mean nothing at all.

These were the SG scores of the VA-3 male at a January WDA trial:

SchH3 272----91-88-92!

Well, damned--look no further--there's our prospective Universal Sieger

Not a perfect world but congrats to everyone who competed at the show.

Is the pari-mutual window open already?