This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Now tell me is this post same as what was presented above By Jim and RAMGSD?
by Slamdunc on 14 February 2013 - 16:02
Hi Hans,
We posted at the same time! Le me answer some of your questions:
I did not post anything from your forum but did copy a post on this forum and reply to it. Please, post the entire message so nothing is taken out of context and we can discuss your training techniques since you started this thread. Regardless of what preceded my response, commanding "down" the dog complying and then correcting the dog for a disobeyed command performed earlier is absolutely wrong! The dog downed, he should be praised and you should move on to proofing he recall when you have the proper tools available. I stand by my earlier post on that! Sorry, we can disagree again.
I can make a point on a sculpture of David without making a video of me making a sculpture of anything or video of me visiting Italy looking at such sculpture. I can keep on going on and on. Thus to say that I have no right to post my opinions on training because i do not have video of me training is not logical.
No, if you said that Michelangelo used improper technique and that you achieve better results with your sculpting technique people would want to see your work! I think that would be fair. Posting some one else's video is very disingenuous, post your own or don't post videos.
1.If I put e collar on your neck and train you with all the proper rules and psychology. Then I take the collar off your neck . Will you notice that the collar is not present?
2. Why is it then that LE dogs if trained and certified with e collars MUST have such device on them when on duty?
3. If it does not matter to the dog who is properly trained if the collar is on or not then why do dogs of even best trainers on the world get trial wise. That is the dogs do not perform as well on the field then they do in training with e collar on?
I don't want to get into all of this but I will address it briefly:
1 The collar is worn for a couple of weeks while training before it is ever used. The collar must go on two or more hours before training and stay on for two or more hours after training, That is the start of the "conditioning" this avoids the dog being "collar smart." During the period the handler touches the remote and "pretends" to use it and the dog gets no stim, that takes out the body language. Next the collar is paired on low level stim to light corrections with the correction collar. Later, when a correction is given it is given with a negative marker so the dog understands the correction came form the handler and instantly marks the incorrect behavior with the negative marker and the stimulation. The dog MUST know the correction came from the handler to be fair. Naturally, a much higher level of praise and reward follows instantly when the dog is correct.
2 I do not know where this comes from; I suppose different PD's have different rules. Using an E collar is optional for us and can be worn at Certification but the Master Trainer holds the transmitter for the Certification process, no corrections of any kind are allowed. I can use any collar I like on my dog and some days he has a flat collar, a prong an and E collar. Every day he wears a thick flat leather collar, most days the E collar and on occasion a prong. Depends what we are doing. he may also wear a harness, Bullet proof vest or muzzle.
3 Well a lot goes on before a big trial, the travel, the crowds. other dogs, etc. Things that can not be created during training. Different water, being away from home and strange surroundings, handler nerves or maybe the dog had a bad day. I have a technique which I will not share here that avoids the dog being "collar smart" on a trial field. It is very simple and works off the principle of Pavlov's dog theory.
We posted at the same time! Le me answer some of your questions:
I did not post anything from your forum but did copy a post on this forum and reply to it. Please, post the entire message so nothing is taken out of context and we can discuss your training techniques since you started this thread. Regardless of what preceded my response, commanding "down" the dog complying and then correcting the dog for a disobeyed command performed earlier is absolutely wrong! The dog downed, he should be praised and you should move on to proofing he recall when you have the proper tools available. I stand by my earlier post on that! Sorry, we can disagree again.
I can make a point on a sculpture of David without making a video of me making a sculpture of anything or video of me visiting Italy looking at such sculpture. I can keep on going on and on. Thus to say that I have no right to post my opinions on training because i do not have video of me training is not logical.
No, if you said that Michelangelo used improper technique and that you achieve better results with your sculpting technique people would want to see your work! I think that would be fair. Posting some one else's video is very disingenuous, post your own or don't post videos.
1.If I put e collar on your neck and train you with all the proper rules and psychology. Then I take the collar off your neck . Will you notice that the collar is not present?
2. Why is it then that LE dogs if trained and certified with e collars MUST have such device on them when on duty?
3. If it does not matter to the dog who is properly trained if the collar is on or not then why do dogs of even best trainers on the world get trial wise. That is the dogs do not perform as well on the field then they do in training with e collar on?
I don't want to get into all of this but I will address it briefly:
1 The collar is worn for a couple of weeks while training before it is ever used. The collar must go on two or more hours before training and stay on for two or more hours after training, That is the start of the "conditioning" this avoids the dog being "collar smart." During the period the handler touches the remote and "pretends" to use it and the dog gets no stim, that takes out the body language. Next the collar is paired on low level stim to light corrections with the correction collar. Later, when a correction is given it is given with a negative marker so the dog understands the correction came form the handler and instantly marks the incorrect behavior with the negative marker and the stimulation. The dog MUST know the correction came from the handler to be fair. Naturally, a much higher level of praise and reward follows instantly when the dog is correct.
2 I do not know where this comes from; I suppose different PD's have different rules. Using an E collar is optional for us and can be worn at Certification but the Master Trainer holds the transmitter for the Certification process, no corrections of any kind are allowed. I can use any collar I like on my dog and some days he has a flat collar, a prong an and E collar. Every day he wears a thick flat leather collar, most days the E collar and on occasion a prong. Depends what we are doing. he may also wear a harness, Bullet proof vest or muzzle.
3 Well a lot goes on before a big trial, the travel, the crowds. other dogs, etc. Things that can not be created during training. Different water, being away from home and strange surroundings, handler nerves or maybe the dog had a bad day. I have a technique which I will not share here that avoids the dog being "collar smart" on a trial field. It is very simple and works off the principle of Pavlov's dog theory.
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 17:02
Jim order to keep it brief I will address #1 point which you made in more detail. :
1 The collar is worn for a couple of weeks while training before it is ever used. The collar must go on two or more hours before training and stay on for two or more hours after training, That is the start of the "conditioning" this avoids the dog being "collar smart." During the period the handler touches the remote and "pretends" to use it and the dog gets no stim, that takes out the body language. Next the collar is paired on low level stim to light corrections with the correction collar. Later, when a correction is given it is given with a negative marker so the dog understands the correction came form the handler and instantly marks the incorrect behavior with the negative marker and the stimulation. The dog MUST know the correction came from the handler to be fair. Naturally, a much higher level of praise and reward follows instantly when the dog is correct.
Yes I am familiar with all this in point 1, but the problem is that regardless how long the collar is on before it is ever first time used or what you do before it is used during daily training the dog will learn and actually get conditioned that if the collar is off the stimulus will not happen. Dogs are not stupid. Your approach is proper for sure but will only diminish or slow down, dog's understanding of collar on and collar off but will not eliminate it. That is one of the undesirable associations. E-Collar on my neck - stimulus is possible- X - E-collar is not my neck stimulus is not possible. You can mix into the shuffle what ever you want and yes such approach will work for a while but old warriors and smart dogs will figure out sooner or later what is going on. Your proposition that the dog must know that the correction is comming from the handler is in this case correct only partially. That is since the dog is going to learn that the correction is coming from you but it is only possible if the collar is on the dog or is turned on.In some instances dog will also actually know the preparation period during which the collar is not use versus when actual training starts and the collar is actually in use and thus potential of correction is present. If you would be so obliged and carefully read my former post on classical training then you will see that I have said that in order to avoid such smart dog's understanding of e - collar's function and negate the possibility of the dog not responding to the handler if the collar is not on, than the training must often and periodically revert to classical training where the e-collar is also not present.
I will not go into 3rd point since that would be long and drawn discussion.
point 2 it is a fact based on my first and knowledge that LE in some depts I am familiar with who certify with e collars must have it then on when on duty. It only makes sense.
1 The collar is worn for a couple of weeks while training before it is ever used. The collar must go on two or more hours before training and stay on for two or more hours after training, That is the start of the "conditioning" this avoids the dog being "collar smart." During the period the handler touches the remote and "pretends" to use it and the dog gets no stim, that takes out the body language. Next the collar is paired on low level stim to light corrections with the correction collar. Later, when a correction is given it is given with a negative marker so the dog understands the correction came form the handler and instantly marks the incorrect behavior with the negative marker and the stimulation. The dog MUST know the correction came from the handler to be fair. Naturally, a much higher level of praise and reward follows instantly when the dog is correct.
Yes I am familiar with all this in point 1, but the problem is that regardless how long the collar is on before it is ever first time used or what you do before it is used during daily training the dog will learn and actually get conditioned that if the collar is off the stimulus will not happen. Dogs are not stupid. Your approach is proper for sure but will only diminish or slow down, dog's understanding of collar on and collar off but will not eliminate it. That is one of the undesirable associations. E-Collar on my neck - stimulus is possible- X - E-collar is not my neck stimulus is not possible. You can mix into the shuffle what ever you want and yes such approach will work for a while but old warriors and smart dogs will figure out sooner or later what is going on. Your proposition that the dog must know that the correction is comming from the handler is in this case correct only partially. That is since the dog is going to learn that the correction is coming from you but it is only possible if the collar is on the dog or is turned on.In some instances dog will also actually know the preparation period during which the collar is not use versus when actual training starts and the collar is actually in use and thus potential of correction is present. If you would be so obliged and carefully read my former post on classical training then you will see that I have said that in order to avoid such smart dog's understanding of e - collar's function and negate the possibility of the dog not responding to the handler if the collar is not on, than the training must often and periodically revert to classical training where the e-collar is also not present.
I will not go into 3rd point since that would be long and drawn discussion.
point 2 it is a fact based on my first and knowledge that LE in some depts I am familiar with who certify with e collars must have it then on when on duty. It only makes sense.
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 18:02
Jim so you according to your definition are disengenious because you do not post your videos here on topic you are talking about,.... right? Personally I do not think so.
And
as far as Michelangelo's David sculpture goes I was thinking more of to make positive or neutral comment and not much of a negative one ...... There are probably millions of people making valid positive, neutral and negative points about David without even being sculptures them selves and making a videos of them sculpturing even less so. Like on his positioning in the plaza or that he made it from faulty stone. Like on its history ....Or that the light today does not do it justice. That it is beautiful or that they like more some other sculpture like David by Bernini or that they like paintings better then sculptures and on and on. Your statement that people need to show videos of them selves here on the topic they are talking about or othervise are disingenuous is silly to say the least.
Also I do not remember that I have said that your training techique with e collar is improper same way I would not say that training technique by Michelangelo is improper. So you rpoint off logical ballance.
Why t is it disingenuous to post video as I have done here as a sample of work well done on the topic discussed? Jim I think it is disingenuous to take other people posts out of context to make your point like you have done here. The person on the video is my friend and he asked me not to use it because he said that it will not make people to see the good in it but just criticize the mistakes in it and will use it for their negative agendas. I told him that his training looks very good and that some will appreciate it. I convinced him to allow me to use it. Now, thanks to you, I can see his point.
I have also said in initial post. I quote. : Here is a working video ( no editing) of training of one of my dogs ( Rex z AlpineK9) by my friend, who, I admit freely, is much better at it and more coordinated then I am.
.As a matter of fact it would be nice if people critisizing me would actually read or re- read the premise of the original post.
Here is OP for your convenience:
Let me start with saying that I am not totally against trainers who are training dogs with e collars. But I do not use it. I believe that it is mostly unnecessary short cut tool. And I do not think that electric collars are cruel if used properly. But I think that they are mostly not necessary and that trainer who uses them is making shortcuts which will or may backfire and that the relationship between the dog and trainer is strained or not clear and that it is better if no e collar is used since then the dog works 100% for the trainer. The training with e collar is faster and more reliable when the collar is on. That is for sure. But before anyone uses it I would like to point out that there are methods which deliver just as good results. Here is a working video ( no editing) of training of one of my dogs ( Rex z AlpineK9) by my friend, who, I admit freely, is much better at it and more coordinated then I am. I am just saying it in order for people here keep their personal attacks against me down a little.That is since this is not about me, but about training w/o e collar. No pager, remote collar, or what ever you call it is used on this dog. Also with super companion type relationship between them two. I am posting this here in order to make people think before they start selecting the training method for training of their dog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSLQ_MLEh_0&feature=youtu.be
Prager Hans
And
as far as Michelangelo's David sculpture goes I was thinking more of to make positive or neutral comment and not much of a negative one ...... There are probably millions of people making valid positive, neutral and negative points about David without even being sculptures them selves and making a videos of them sculpturing even less so. Like on his positioning in the plaza or that he made it from faulty stone. Like on its history ....Or that the light today does not do it justice. That it is beautiful or that they like more some other sculpture like David by Bernini or that they like paintings better then sculptures and on and on. Your statement that people need to show videos of them selves here on the topic they are talking about or othervise are disingenuous is silly to say the least.
Also I do not remember that I have said that your training techique with e collar is improper same way I would not say that training technique by Michelangelo is improper. So you rpoint off logical ballance.
Why t is it disingenuous to post video as I have done here as a sample of work well done on the topic discussed? Jim I think it is disingenuous to take other people posts out of context to make your point like you have done here. The person on the video is my friend and he asked me not to use it because he said that it will not make people to see the good in it but just criticize the mistakes in it and will use it for their negative agendas. I told him that his training looks very good and that some will appreciate it. I convinced him to allow me to use it. Now, thanks to you, I can see his point.
I have also said in initial post. I quote. : Here is a working video ( no editing) of training of one of my dogs ( Rex z AlpineK9) by my friend, who, I admit freely, is much better at it and more coordinated then I am.
.As a matter of fact it would be nice if people critisizing me would actually read or re- read the premise of the original post.
Here is OP for your convenience:
Let me start with saying that I am not totally against trainers who are training dogs with e collars. But I do not use it. I believe that it is mostly unnecessary short cut tool. And I do not think that electric collars are cruel if used properly. But I think that they are mostly not necessary and that trainer who uses them is making shortcuts which will or may backfire and that the relationship between the dog and trainer is strained or not clear and that it is better if no e collar is used since then the dog works 100% for the trainer. The training with e collar is faster and more reliable when the collar is on. That is for sure. But before anyone uses it I would like to point out that there are methods which deliver just as good results. Here is a working video ( no editing) of training of one of my dogs ( Rex z AlpineK9) by my friend, who, I admit freely, is much better at it and more coordinated then I am. I am just saying it in order for people here keep their personal attacks against me down a little.That is since this is not about me, but about training w/o e collar. No pager, remote collar, or what ever you call it is used on this dog. Also with super companion type relationship between them two. I am posting this here in order to make people think before they start selecting the training method for training of their dog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSLQ_MLEh_0&feature=youtu.be
Prager Hans
by Slamdunc on 14 February 2013 - 19:02
Hans,
I never criticized the video that was posted, I never critiqued the video or commented directly on that video. I like the dog in the video and I like the work the handler is doing with that dog. It appears he is using some of Ivan's techniques and that is fantastic. Many of us do very similar things and do not use an E collar at this stage of training. This is standard for some one who is setting a nice foundation for sport or motivational OB. My comment was directed to YOU and not the handler or dog, that is not a video of a dog that needs an e collar at this point or may never need it. As others pointed out it is not a "finished" dog which was the point of posting the video; to see a dog that YOU have finished and to see your technique.
Hans, I offered on the other thread to post videos and I have plenty. I told you that I have posted videos before, some here but more on other forums. I have even used my IPhone, shocking as that is to some to post videos here in response to questions. What would you like to see my dog do and I will post a video of it this week? I'll put my go pro camera on me or on my dog and post video. give me an idea of what you want to see, Narcotics Detection work, building searches covert on 30' lead or free, Obedience, bite work, muzzle fighting, tracking? I'm willing to do it and it will be a recent video, I work tomorrow and I can do it then.
Here is what I said on 2/5/13:
Hans, I have posted videos. You are correct though, I rarely post videos...here; but have on other forums, I'm also not influential just another guy who enjoys his job and his dog. I'm back to work tomorrow and it's SWAT training with Boomer. Next Tuesday a major vendor of Military and LE working dogs is coming out to train with us, I will also be working my dog all week on the street as well. Let me know what you'd like to see and I will be more than happy to video it. Give me a scenario, tactical obedience, aggression work with multiple decoys, building clearing, detection work, table training, etc. It may not be perfect or pretty; but I'll video it with a GO Pro or even my IPhone (mine takes nice video). What ever you'd like to see me or the dog do, if I am able to post it I will. There are some aspects of our training I won't post for the general public. Then it's your turn, deal?
I'm more than happy to do it and take the heat that comes along with it.
I never criticized the video that was posted, I never critiqued the video or commented directly on that video. I like the dog in the video and I like the work the handler is doing with that dog. It appears he is using some of Ivan's techniques and that is fantastic. Many of us do very similar things and do not use an E collar at this stage of training. This is standard for some one who is setting a nice foundation for sport or motivational OB. My comment was directed to YOU and not the handler or dog, that is not a video of a dog that needs an e collar at this point or may never need it. As others pointed out it is not a "finished" dog which was the point of posting the video; to see a dog that YOU have finished and to see your technique.
Hans, I offered on the other thread to post videos and I have plenty. I told you that I have posted videos before, some here but more on other forums. I have even used my IPhone, shocking as that is to some to post videos here in response to questions. What would you like to see my dog do and I will post a video of it this week? I'll put my go pro camera on me or on my dog and post video. give me an idea of what you want to see, Narcotics Detection work, building searches covert on 30' lead or free, Obedience, bite work, muzzle fighting, tracking? I'm willing to do it and it will be a recent video, I work tomorrow and I can do it then.
Here is what I said on 2/5/13:
Hans, I have posted videos. You are correct though, I rarely post videos...here; but have on other forums, I'm also not influential just another guy who enjoys his job and his dog. I'm back to work tomorrow and it's SWAT training with Boomer. Next Tuesday a major vendor of Military and LE working dogs is coming out to train with us, I will also be working my dog all week on the street as well. Let me know what you'd like to see and I will be more than happy to video it. Give me a scenario, tactical obedience, aggression work with multiple decoys, building clearing, detection work, table training, etc. It may not be perfect or pretty; but I'll video it with a GO Pro or even my IPhone (mine takes nice video). What ever you'd like to see me or the dog do, if I am able to post it I will. There are some aspects of our training I won't post for the general public. Then it's your turn, deal?
I'm more than happy to do it and take the heat that comes along with it.
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 19:02
Jim: I did not post anything from your forum but did copy a post on this forum and reply to it. Please, post the entire message so nothing is taken out of context and we can discuss your training techniques since you started this thread. OK I understand
Jim:
Regardless of what preceded my response, commanding "down" the dog complying and then correcting the dog for a disobeyed command performed earlier is absolutely wrong.
That is usually so but not in this case. What I am describing is different though and it is called " Marking of the behavior" . You can mark behavior positively and negatively. I am talking about marking the behavior negatively. In another words no you can not punish dog for down which was given by happy type comand. That would be wrong . Of course! But what I am doing is I am at first marking the improper behavior by "No" and my attitude which continue and thus marks such behavior ( even through the additional command down in this case. and a lot of matter on the tone of the voice used for such command) all the way to the correction and subsequent ending of such correction. Then the dog does understand that the correction was for improper behavior originally marked. In another words by marking the improper behavior the dog continues to live in that moment of such correction no matter what until the dog is released from that negative attitude of such situation by command which is given AFTER the correction is finished and next command is given. Correction may be finished by many ways from actual correction on the collar and subsequent change of the attitude to happy time or staring at the dog of trainer's body posture or all of the above and subsequent change of the attitude to happy time,.... and so on. Then the mark is lifted. You do not need to say down to the dog during the negative marked behavior but it may be hard to catch the dog.
Conclusion.
Marking the improper behavior by "NO" and certain attitude of the handler the situation continues until the attitude of the handler/trainer changes and gets positive. The technique completely diminishes need for use of e collar as a "long distance leash.
Prager Hans
Jim:
Regardless of what preceded my response, commanding "down" the dog complying and then correcting the dog for a disobeyed command performed earlier is absolutely wrong.
That is usually so but not in this case. What I am describing is different though and it is called " Marking of the behavior" . You can mark behavior positively and negatively. I am talking about marking the behavior negatively. In another words no you can not punish dog for down which was given by happy type comand. That would be wrong . Of course! But what I am doing is I am at first marking the improper behavior by "No" and my attitude which continue and thus marks such behavior ( even through the additional command down in this case. and a lot of matter on the tone of the voice used for such command) all the way to the correction and subsequent ending of such correction. Then the dog does understand that the correction was for improper behavior originally marked. In another words by marking the improper behavior the dog continues to live in that moment of such correction no matter what until the dog is released from that negative attitude of such situation by command which is given AFTER the correction is finished and next command is given. Correction may be finished by many ways from actual correction on the collar and subsequent change of the attitude to happy time or staring at the dog of trainer's body posture or all of the above and subsequent change of the attitude to happy time,.... and so on. Then the mark is lifted. You do not need to say down to the dog during the negative marked behavior but it may be hard to catch the dog.
Conclusion.
Marking the improper behavior by "NO" and certain attitude of the handler the situation continues until the attitude of the handler/trainer changes and gets positive. The technique completely diminishes need for use of e collar as a "long distance leash.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 20:02
Jim seems that we have 2 parallel discussions. Jim you said :
I never critiqued the video or commented directly on that video.
Well yes that very sad though and it is because you and others were bussy attacking me rather then having inteligent discusion about the video. .
As far as video goes I do not believe that it is necessary for you or me or anybody to post any videos of ourselves in order to have intelligent discussion especially not in this rabid environment. I am sure that you know how to train dogs and I do not need you to prove me anything by showing me videos of you training . I trust that what you are saying is honest sincere opinion and I do not need video for that. Are you saying that people before videos could not have discussions on practical topics? This argument here is totally stupid and has nothing to do with the topic. It seems that some people here can not have discussion without attitude of "screening" at others = show me a video!!!!! like crazy people every time someone says something they are not familiar with or disagree with. Instead discussing it on its merit they treat it as a personal attack even if it is not. There is no friendly exchange of ideas possible.I thought that we could discuss this topic in a friendly way but instead it is about egos and I am better trainer then you and show me your video or shut up!!. Here it is not possible to discuss merits of different training without someone saying...." you obviously do not know what you are talking about" and you better do not train dogs. ...or generally make people with different approach talk down to and make them feel like crap. Than people are happy that they put disagreeing party down and people who want to learn do not learn squat. You ( not necessarily Jim) have won by shouting me down as is customary. I digress.
Have a nice day.
Prager Hans
I never critiqued the video or commented directly on that video.
Well yes that very sad though and it is because you and others were bussy attacking me rather then having inteligent discusion about the video. .
As far as video goes I do not believe that it is necessary for you or me or anybody to post any videos of ourselves in order to have intelligent discussion especially not in this rabid environment. I am sure that you know how to train dogs and I do not need you to prove me anything by showing me videos of you training . I trust that what you are saying is honest sincere opinion and I do not need video for that. Are you saying that people before videos could not have discussions on practical topics? This argument here is totally stupid and has nothing to do with the topic. It seems that some people here can not have discussion without attitude of "screening" at others = show me a video!!!!! like crazy people every time someone says something they are not familiar with or disagree with. Instead discussing it on its merit they treat it as a personal attack even if it is not. There is no friendly exchange of ideas possible.I thought that we could discuss this topic in a friendly way but instead it is about egos and I am better trainer then you and show me your video or shut up!!. Here it is not possible to discuss merits of different training without someone saying...." you obviously do not know what you are talking about" and you better do not train dogs. ...or generally make people with different approach talk down to and make them feel like crap. Than people are happy that they put disagreeing party down and people who want to learn do not learn squat. You ( not necessarily Jim) have won by shouting me down as is customary. I digress.
Have a nice day.
Prager Hans
by ramgsd on 14 February 2013 - 20:02
HANS in no way did I mis-represent your post. It's a direct quote. You felt the need to post the entire post and NOTHING has CHANGED. The way you say to do it is WRONG and very confussing to any dog no matter what foundation was used. You can't correct a dog after giving him a comand and him doing it properly then expect him to know it wasn't for doing the right thing. PERIOD.
I don't take it as a personal attack since I train some dogs with and some without E-collar. Depends on the dog.
LET'S ANSWER YOUR ?'s
1.If I put e collar on your neck and train you with all the proper rules and psychology. Then I take the collar off your neck . Will you notice that the collar is not present?
ANSWER: Yes and the dog will realize the collar is off. The same way he will notice the prong is off, the leash isn"t there.... So you have to be able to correct your dog without the e-collar the same as you would have to using a metal collar and leash. For some reason you think that if you use an E-collar you haven't laid that foundation work. WRONG! My dogs know that if the collar isn't on that it doesn't mean I can't correct them. So yes if I take the E-collar or prong or what ever collar off the dog may try to see what he can get away with. As a matter of fact I want them to and I think a good one should try. Then they will see that I don't need that prong or e-collar to correct them appropriately.
2. Why is it then that LE dogs if trained and certified with e collars MUST have such device on them when on duty?
ANSWER: I guess that's up to each individual department. Some cop handlers are great. Some aren't so good. I guess if they need the E-collar to actually pass the cert. (& not just training) they probably aren't good enough to handle the dog w/out one period.
3. If it does not matter to the dog who is properly trained if the collar is on or not then why do dogs of even best trainers on the world get trial wise. That is the dogs do not perform as well on the field then they do in training with e collar on?
ANSWER: Trial wise is trial wise PERIOD. I know you not trying to say dogs trained on a choke or prong don't get trial wise. I've seen it happen with dogs trained with every kind of collar out there. After the dog has been trialed a few times and make a mistake and doesn't get the correction he thought he was going to get, the dog realizes there is no corrections coming on trial day. What about these PRECISION dogs out there that are at the top for a number of years that train w/e-collars that turn in great performances year after year? Are they not smart enough to know it's trial day? LOL.
You keep saying your not against E-collars but most of your posts about training somehow always include your personal bias too them. So let me be the first to say it I CALL BULLSH!T !!!!!!!!!
If you don't wish to post an example of your dog then be kind enough to post a any dog doing FINISHED PREISION WORK that isn't trained with an E-collar. I know there are some out there. SOMETHING. ANYTHING.
Just because you post something over and over again DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Just because you say every dod will slack off once the e-collar is of DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Just because you say it doesn't promote bonding with your dog DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.
I said it before and I'll say it again I repect you knowledge on the Czech pedigrees but on this subject we'll just have to agree to disagree. I wish you all the best and perhaps we'll agree on the next topic.
I don't take it as a personal attack since I train some dogs with and some without E-collar. Depends on the dog.
LET'S ANSWER YOUR ?'s
1.If I put e collar on your neck and train you with all the proper rules and psychology. Then I take the collar off your neck . Will you notice that the collar is not present?
ANSWER: Yes and the dog will realize the collar is off. The same way he will notice the prong is off, the leash isn"t there.... So you have to be able to correct your dog without the e-collar the same as you would have to using a metal collar and leash. For some reason you think that if you use an E-collar you haven't laid that foundation work. WRONG! My dogs know that if the collar isn't on that it doesn't mean I can't correct them. So yes if I take the E-collar or prong or what ever collar off the dog may try to see what he can get away with. As a matter of fact I want them to and I think a good one should try. Then they will see that I don't need that prong or e-collar to correct them appropriately.
2. Why is it then that LE dogs if trained and certified with e collars MUST have such device on them when on duty?
ANSWER: I guess that's up to each individual department. Some cop handlers are great. Some aren't so good. I guess if they need the E-collar to actually pass the cert. (& not just training) they probably aren't good enough to handle the dog w/out one period.
3. If it does not matter to the dog who is properly trained if the collar is on or not then why do dogs of even best trainers on the world get trial wise. That is the dogs do not perform as well on the field then they do in training with e collar on?
ANSWER: Trial wise is trial wise PERIOD. I know you not trying to say dogs trained on a choke or prong don't get trial wise. I've seen it happen with dogs trained with every kind of collar out there. After the dog has been trialed a few times and make a mistake and doesn't get the correction he thought he was going to get, the dog realizes there is no corrections coming on trial day. What about these PRECISION dogs out there that are at the top for a number of years that train w/e-collars that turn in great performances year after year? Are they not smart enough to know it's trial day? LOL.
You keep saying your not against E-collars but most of your posts about training somehow always include your personal bias too them. So let me be the first to say it I CALL BULLSH!T !!!!!!!!!
If you don't wish to post an example of your dog then be kind enough to post a any dog doing FINISHED PREISION WORK that isn't trained with an E-collar. I know there are some out there. SOMETHING. ANYTHING.
Just because you post something over and over again DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Just because you say every dod will slack off once the e-collar is of DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE. Just because you say it doesn't promote bonding with your dog DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.
I said it before and I'll say it again I repect you knowledge on the Czech pedigrees but on this subject we'll just have to agree to disagree. I wish you all the best and perhaps we'll agree on the next topic.
by Prager on 14 February 2013 - 20:02
RamGSD Just because it is a direct quote does not mean that you did not misrepresented what I was saying. You may say.: " I have never said :"" I do not like Jeremiah."" And I will quote you that you said and I quote directly but without context that you said: "I do not like Jeremiah." Direct quote. It is scummy way to have discussion. Same as post negative posts anonymously. I suggest that you actually read what I have actually said in the post which you gutted. I posted it here above in it's entirety. .
Anyway I am done here it is just waste of time. I am not interested in answering your accusations. As far as posting videos on dog trained without e collar I will keep posting Rex as he progresses. Maybe.
Prager Hans
Anyway I am done here it is just waste of time. I am not interested in answering your accusations. As far as posting videos on dog trained without e collar I will keep posting Rex as he progresses. Maybe.
Prager Hans
by gsdstudent on 14 February 2013 - 20:02
to quote Monty Python '' is this the room for an argument? '' yes it is, no it isn't. I think I'll go find that scene on line and have a good laugh. Fight nice guys and gals.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
