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by Minicus on 21 November 2012 - 19:11
You are right Jenni about time spent. The only issue I have is that when I was looking for a GSD puppy I came to this forum to learn . When breeders are accused of certain things which can not be substantiated or by false information it may make newbies like myself leary which is fine as long as we do our own research (OFA-SV,Videos Etc.) I find it amazing that people can come on here and throw accusations without proof. I have heard many times that puppies are a "crap shoot" I know people take offense to this but I believe it is reality. I have heard many times on this site that breeding deals with the whole package. This is from the OFA site "Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED" so no guarantee.
OFA's Recommended Breeding Principals
- Breed normals to normals
- Breed normals with normal ancestry
- Breed normals from litters (brothers/sisters) with a low incidence of HD
- Select a sire that produces a low incidence of HD
- Replace dogs with dogs that are better than the breed average
by Gustav on 21 November 2012 - 21:11
It is very easy to tell working dog breeders from Internet breeders....but being as this is a working dog then the end result for a good breeder is producing good working dogs....some of which will be pets, some of which will function in sport, show, and work, but breeding is far more complex than breeding titles to titles ot certs to certs. You have to breed dogs.
by vonissk on 22 November 2012 - 00:11
Well said Gustav. by Aadilah07 on 22 November 2012 - 14:11
Hi Candace, appreciate your input...At least you unlike many on this site do some "homework" . Many just babble away...
May you pls check the status of Adela vom Rom...Sister to Axel...will be much appreciated...
Joanro, no snipe hunting here...not from me anyway...neither from my 2 buddies...
Jenni78 not all of us are perfect, a spelling mistake here OR there shouldn't be such an issue...
Heuwel OR Heuvel ...you still know the kennel i'm referring to, don't you...
May you pls check the status of Adela vom Rom...Sister to Axel...will be much appreciated...
Joanro, no snipe hunting here...not from me anyway...neither from my 2 buddies...
Jenni78 not all of us are perfect, a spelling mistake here OR there shouldn't be such an issue...
Heuwel OR Heuvel ...you still know the kennel i'm referring to, don't you...
by Jenni78 on 22 November 2012 - 15:11
I know the kennel you're referring to, but a newbie won't. And it wasn't "here or there"; it was the vast majority, as well as the term "noch zugelassen" among other things. It makes it impossible for a newbie to look up the information for themselves. The people who can piece it together don't need to look it up, anyway.
by Gustav on 22 November 2012 - 16:11
Every kennel if they have produced 3 litters or more have produced bad hips and bad elbows. The issue should never be individual dogs examined but the body of work in terms of overall production. I would never breed to an OFA excellent that came from a litter with 3 displays tic pups in it....just like I would absolutely breed to an OFA fair who has strong sibling hip scores or say is linebred on a known improver like Aly Vordinsteinwald. Lot more to breeding than looking at individual dogs certs or titles and making a judgement. Two of last three pups I have acquired were out of SCH 1 males, and I could take either of them to any club in the country and they would be excellent. I know people who look at sch1 and immediately dismiss a dog.....but often these people are knowledgable by paper so I guess you really can't blame them.
by joanro on 22 November 2012 - 17:11
....
by Prager on 23 November 2012 - 18:11
Dear Adilah07.
Here are some points I would like to tell you. Please do not get "shocked" as you constantly do.
1.AlpineK9 and z Jirkova dvora and others working under Jinopo name produced thousands of pups in last 30+ years. Yes there were some dysplastic dogs but the percentage is low to very low. Only people who do not breed do not produce bad hips.
2.A normal, Fast Normal and Noch zugelassen ( Still permissible) are breedable hips in Europe. Thus it does not need to "shock" you when you see such hips on the pedigrees.
3. it is obvious that you have agenda . But since you mentioned 2 dogs which I owe I will oblige and here is my response.
These two dogs of mine which got mentioned are Gracy z AlpineK9 and Adela vom Ron.
Gracy has her x rays posted in GALLERY and OFA is pending. She became 2 years only few months ago. I hate to "shock" you by the fact that I did not x rayed her any sooner. But you will have to live that fact.
Adela , which I have obtained from my friend Joanro is one of the best dogs I have and she has her x rays also posted in the gallery.
I do OFA only because people ask for it as a courtesy. I personally do not need it because I can read x rays. I have learned from the best. It may shock you that I will not do OFA on Adela because I do not want to. They are fine and I will not waste money on this. If you need to know what they are look at the pictures. If you do not know how to read it ask someone who does.
Hans
Here are some points I would like to tell you. Please do not get "shocked" as you constantly do.
1.AlpineK9 and z Jirkova dvora and others working under Jinopo name produced thousands of pups in last 30+ years. Yes there were some dysplastic dogs but the percentage is low to very low. Only people who do not breed do not produce bad hips.
2.A normal, Fast Normal and Noch zugelassen ( Still permissible) are breedable hips in Europe. Thus it does not need to "shock" you when you see such hips on the pedigrees.
3. it is obvious that you have agenda . But since you mentioned 2 dogs which I owe I will oblige and here is my response.
These two dogs of mine which got mentioned are Gracy z AlpineK9 and Adela vom Ron.
Gracy has her x rays posted in GALLERY and OFA is pending. She became 2 years only few months ago. I hate to "shock" you by the fact that I did not x rayed her any sooner. But you will have to live that fact.
Adela , which I have obtained from my friend Joanro is one of the best dogs I have and she has her x rays also posted in the gallery.
I do OFA only because people ask for it as a courtesy. I personally do not need it because I can read x rays. I have learned from the best. It may shock you that I will not do OFA on Adela because I do not want to. They are fine and I will not waste money on this. If you need to know what they are look at the pictures. If you do not know how to read it ask someone who does.
Hans
by Aadilah07 on 25 November 2012 - 21:11
Hans, wow a response from you:
I absolutely agree that there will be a low to very low % of hip failures...
What is concerning is that in the recent years the % is increasing instead of decreasing OR even staying constant at the low to very low %.
I mean, there is a lot of info available and True Breeders that care will do follow ups on previous litters before repeating matings, etc.
Some breeders do a preliminary scan at 6 months so there is no excuse to saying that we do not know of the problem dogs in our breeding program...By reading it yourself, and "not wasting money" already tells me and the many readers that; you do not have a solid system...Many Countries are actually governed by the SV OR a National controlling body when it comes to stuff like this...A System that has worked for many decades...Every Breeding animal has to pass minimum breeding standards, eg. have hips done at a Vet but read and graded by only approved and authourized personnel, the DNA to prove the dogs you say have been bred with are the actual parents, the minimum breeding age for females and males who generally mature slightly later, and also the breeding animal should have passed a Breed SHOW under a Breed Judge who makes sure that the animal conforms to certain minimum breed standards...and is FREE of disqualifying faults...I and majority of the people are not experts at reading hips, so will not even look at the posts in the gallery...
An authorized system will be a better option don't you think...
By the way: allenf mentioned on a previous post in this Forum about Urf z Jirkova Dvora as hip status noch zugelassen but on the Alpine K9 website; you have his hips as A, is it a mistake perhaps OR maybe you should tell us readers why?
I absolutely agree that there will be a low to very low % of hip failures...
What is concerning is that in the recent years the % is increasing instead of decreasing OR even staying constant at the low to very low %.
I mean, there is a lot of info available and True Breeders that care will do follow ups on previous litters before repeating matings, etc.
Some breeders do a preliminary scan at 6 months so there is no excuse to saying that we do not know of the problem dogs in our breeding program...By reading it yourself, and "not wasting money" already tells me and the many readers that; you do not have a solid system...Many Countries are actually governed by the SV OR a National controlling body when it comes to stuff like this...A System that has worked for many decades...Every Breeding animal has to pass minimum breeding standards, eg. have hips done at a Vet but read and graded by only approved and authourized personnel, the DNA to prove the dogs you say have been bred with are the actual parents, the minimum breeding age for females and males who generally mature slightly later, and also the breeding animal should have passed a Breed SHOW under a Breed Judge who makes sure that the animal conforms to certain minimum breed standards...and is FREE of disqualifying faults...I and majority of the people are not experts at reading hips, so will not even look at the posts in the gallery...
An authorized system will be a better option don't you think...
By the way: allenf mentioned on a previous post in this Forum about Urf z Jirkova Dvora as hip status noch zugelassen but on the Alpine K9 website; you have his hips as A, is it a mistake perhaps OR maybe you should tell us readers why?
by Jenni78 on 25 November 2012 - 22:11
Oh! Oh! I can answer your last question. Um, noch zugelassen IS an "A" rating...A3 to be specific.
Once again, you wow us with your in-depth knowledge of all things GSD. I was being serious when I suggested earlier that if you want to bash someone, you make sure that you are accurate, correct, and that you know what you're talking about. Even if you were 100% dead-on about all your accusations, the fact that you don't know noch zugelassen hips are "A" hips undermines everything else you say and discredits you entirely, imho. At least, that's what I think when I read something like that. I see someone who doesn't know the first thing about what it is they're speaking of and whose only desire is to tarnish the reputation of another.
Once again, you wow us with your in-depth knowledge of all things GSD. I was being serious when I suggested earlier that if you want to bash someone, you make sure that you are accurate, correct, and that you know what you're talking about. Even if you were 100% dead-on about all your accusations, the fact that you don't know noch zugelassen hips are "A" hips undermines everything else you say and discredits you entirely, imho. At least, that's what I think when I read something like that. I see someone who doesn't know the first thing about what it is they're speaking of and whose only desire is to tarnish the reputation of another.
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