dogs bred for looks lose mental bite - Page 6

My problem with American showlines is that they are full of health problems. I once had a beautiful American showline bitch with a pedigree full of champions from west coast kennels. People everywhere we went told me she was beautiful and she was, but she developed spondylosis, HD and perianal fistulas. HD and fistulas are hereditary problems - and they are too common in American lines that are bred for beauty only.  I went to German dogs and I will never go back to American dogs. Yes, Germans have health problems too. But IMO less frequently since the dogs actually have to do some work and an unsound dog can't work, whether the dog is unsound in mind or body.

Are you saying that a herding dog, officially, is NOT a working dog? Isn't herding working? What IS it then, playing around?

You should ask the AKC to used the term for the classification "Working (other than herding) group".

Yes, herding is a kind of work, but there is a herding group in AKC.

if you had you would have chapter and verse and pictures of German shepherds doing police work, red cross work under gunfire, military work, including sentry dogs, back in the twenties, thirties, and forties, when the dog was doing work in line with the ORIGIN of the breed. So protection work was done back in the twenties even. Your lack of knowledge of the uses of the breed in the past and even today are part of the reason for no discussion on beauty.

First, there is an S in GSD.

Second, the GSD is in the herding group

Third, all the work that your mentioned are modifications from herding

Fourth, for most people a dog is first and foremost a pet. People have real special and valid reason to own a GSD as a pet for the most part.   SchH people in particular take their sport too seriously. A robber who knows you have $5000 cash in your urban house can kill your SchH dog easily.  How many SchH dogs will certainly, 95% or better chance, not approach a fence and bark? I know some are trained to hide and ambush, but how many actually do? Isn't hide and ambush rather advanced training? How many attain this level? 

Fifth,  a breed of any dogs can have more than one line, and in each line there are followers. Follwers of each line respect the reason for follwers of other lines.

Sixth, beauty is a visual delight  that is very satisfying to the follwers of the American Showline. Many are inverterate animal lovers and to them a dog is certainly a pet for the most part. They have the reason to choose a GSD as such a pet as you do for working purpose. You should respect this preference.

"Original Purposes" evolve to fit the needs of peope, different kinds of people.

Can't say about other diseases, though I just don't know any stats about other diseases.

For HD and ED, one has to look at the pedigree. I feel quite comfortable about mine.

My American Showline girl has three generations of nearly complete OFA records. Both parents and all four grandparents are OFA H&E. 7 of 8 g-grandparents OFA, 6 of which OFA H&E. 14 of 16 g-g-grandparents are OFA, 10 of which are H&E.
 
The sire has less depth, one fewer generation of OFA records (many g-g-grandparents aren't OFA), but is stronger up front, as he himself and his mom are hip excellent.

The pups would likely have normal H&E.

I think many top American showline have rather good OFA record, may be not nearly as good as mine.

One has to pay a fair amount and be selective for quality. Isn't this true for imports?  Can't compare a $500 pup with a $2500 pup.

highdesert, Did you know that the Sch title was developed FOR the German Shepherd by the originators to determine which dogs SHOULD be bred. Did you know that in Germany 95% of the German Shepherds registered as adults have Sch degrees, Do you know that many Top american showdogs don't have OFA, and they arent required, for them to be at the top in the showring, do you know that the American showlines is rife with heriditary illnesses and diseases, moreso than imports and workinglines.  There is so much you don't know as evidenced by your comments, the only thing you have said that you know is beauty which is subjective and in the eyes of the beholder. Whenever, I take my dog somewhere I also get comments on how beautiful my female is and how she doen't act like american shepherds and this was the way they were when they were growing up....and these are the regular public not GS people. You don't know how many times people looking at getting a german shepherd have expressed that "You don't have those shy spooky American shepherds do you?"  You continue with your journey, though so little people are listening that you will have a dominant voice in your small group that thinks likewise. You keep going back to herding and I guarantee you that you have never trained in herding...why?? because dominant ewes and rams take relish in running off weak german shepherds. German shepherds that don't grip with authority are not successful. I have a herding instructor that lives 10 miles from me that I test my dogs on when they get 6 to 10 months. She always complains about how american shepherds come for evaluations and her dominant ewes run them off. She asks me what is wrong with the American lines, because this never happens with my puppies. So now do we eliminate herding too??? Do your homework, then make assertions and you will get intelligent dialogue.

Oh no, HD, you are closing your eyes to some very serious problems in AM. showline dogs.  I have seen grossly neurotic behavior from these dog AT AKC conformation events.

I saw one dog who just got Best of Breed terrified of the podium they put him on to photgraph him, nails digging in, trembling. When the flashbulb went off he flew off the podium and hid behind his handler. Best of Breed??!! Hah!!!

One of my first obedience events, I saw 2 GSDs (clearly there for conformation) nearly drag their handler into a ditch as I drove by, they were so frightened to simple traffic.

At another event, I saw a bored owner flick his dogs tail as he stood on on the grooming table. His dog proceeded to VIOLENTLY go after his own tail as the guy chuckled, he clearly did it to amuse himself.  

I have trained dogs from fairly well known american line kennels, I have seen dogs out of your celebrated Dallas.  I have yet to see one that comes even close to a correct GSD temperment.

Also, go and on about herding. You clearly don't know your GSD history.  Yes, they were derived from german herding dogs, thus the name, but were incorporated almost immediately into utilitarian police and military service, and as Gustav stated, schutzhund was created as a breed worthiness test.  Discard original purpose...good lord.

And lastly, just because random people call a dog "beautiful" isn't proof of anything.  I've seen people call dogs who were easty/westy, weak backed, cowhocked, poorly pigmented, with horrible protruding eyes "beautiful".  People have also asked my what my V rated, KKL1 bitch is mixed with. You know what they say about the masses...

> by HighDesertGSD on 26 January 2009 - 05:01
>
> For HD and ED, one has to look at the pedigree. I feel quite comfortable about mine.
>
> My American Showline girl has three generations of nearly complete OFA records.

NEARLY!? And that is what you brag of? Get real! EVEN if all dogs in the pedigree was OFA'ed excellent, you can still get HD on the offspring. If you had come with either a low ZW or good statistics on the parents, grandparents and great-grandparents I might be impressed. But then there's also the question if the mating partner suits the individual you have, and that is only ONE thing to consider. Mentality is the next, and correct conformation thereafter.

No, as Gustav so cleverly says; do your homework and dogwork (ie. title your dog to document that the dog really have what is needed), then we can discuss this on the right terms.

> by Gustav on 26 January 2009 - 14:01
> 
> I have a herding instructor that lives 10 miles from me that I test my dogs on when they get 6 to 10 months.

You are lucky to have that opportunity Gustav! Isn't it interesting to see how the dogs handle the sheep? It's also interesting to see how this is inherited from parents to offspring.

Do you know that many Top american showdogs don't have OFA, and they arent required, for them to be at the top in the showring, do you know that the American showlines is rife with heriditary illnesses and diseases, more so than imports and workinglines. 

In the process of finding a stud for my girl, I have come to understanding the current attitude and reality toward OFA certification among top American Showline breeders.

It is not officially required, but most AKC Champions now are OFA. The awareness for the need of OFA among top US breeders started 10-15 years ago. This is 3-5 generations for dogs. Many top breeders actually take OFA seriously now. Many breeders, particularly  of potential champions, take serious prelim on hips H&E of young dogs a year old, just to make sure that their effort toward championship is not wasted.

It is actually very easy to search for the OFA records of any dog from OFFA online. When I am interested in a potential stud and its conformation pedigree, I search for its OFA records online. I think the majority of breeding dogs of top breeders born after the later 90's have OFA records.  I tend to assess that now typically  that the champion and both parents are OFA. I think this is about average OFA strength for now. In another 3 years, it would likely improve.

There is no room and also no need for discussion when the declaration is that the AKC and OFA records are irelevent. Some people take themselves too seriously, simply put.

Also, is there any proof that other genetic diseases are more prevalent among top American showline than imports? Also, what is the biological reason for this if it is true?