Just my questions - Page 5

BE I know that; but all of that stuff (which fortunately used to be available to me years ago when I needed it) is really not available* where I live now without taking the car and thwarting the 'Stay at home' thing, and that would also be true for instance of my neighbour with her young dog. So its a good thing I do not need it; but I worry about others who might. 2,3 weeks or longer is a long time in the life of a pup. Unfortunately, many owners would not use these facilities even if they were NOT being asked to stay indoors !

* e.g. You would be hard pushed to find any sort of bridge, metal or not, in our local woods. I was tons better off in the city !

 

Centurian, what I would want to take into consideration there is 'recovery time'.  Let's leave aside any dog having that 'one thing' that it was phobic about, or reactive to, at some level that really made life very difficult for its handler and precluded it being able to do whatever is required of it.  If a dog during 'socialisation' never comes up against e.g. the slippery, reflective floor surface, or open staircase, and then sometime later is suddenly faced with one, yeah it may spook and refuse to walk on it.  But I would only see that as a genetically induced temperament failing if the dog could not, with a little thought and work by the owner, overcome that resistence.  I acknowledge it might interupt 'work' as a patrol dog or give concern as to whether the dog will get certified. Seems to me there are different degrees of willingness to try to fix a problem like this, and different expectations of how long to try for, among us humans.

 

GK1 - I didn't undesrtand your question . :

"so wouldn't it be difficult in theory to determine whether or not the dog achieves xyz? " .

Yes the dog cannot do or be anything more than what it is , genetically . The learning and the environment affect the dog - it does not change the dog from this genetics to that genetics. But we can state whether learning can and is bringing out the potential of the dog and we similarily state whether or not they dampen / hinder the dog from expressing it's potential . How do I go about this ?

I can tell you that when I evaluate a dog [ Formally most definately and I try at times when I informally evaluate the dog] , I strip away the environment to see the dog genetically . Yes this can be done for those that are well experienced and knowledgable . So if I have an understanding of the dog and it's genetics and temperament , and I understand the environment / learning factors upon the dog , yes, I personally can make some very reliable predictions about what the dog will achieve. If a I see a dog with certain potential and I see a person that does not know how to interact with the dog [ and this implies handling , teaching , decoying/helper etc ] I can reasonably predict that this dog will not reach it's x ,or y , or z potential.

I have seen this many times here on the PDB . I will give one example : Juno ... most of the posters remember Juno and how I felt for him and his dog ? Although I did not formally temperament test his dog , nor did I know Juno, I understood : the dog's temperament , how he was being handled , and my pet peeve, how the decoys were interacting with this dog [ IMOp of course ] . The teaching of this dog was way off [ IMOp ] . So, no , the dog was not going to fulfill it's potential the in the manner it was going The genetics of the dog were not lessened but the impact by the teaching lowered and hindered this dog's potential to achieve what it could have achieved .

My point GK - we can get a reasonable determination of what a dog can be by obsewrvingnthe gentics of the dog and the environment/learning . Don't know if I answered your question- I was a little confused as to what you were trying to ask .

Regular walks should be enough for a normal puppy. Just the exposure itself of the neighborhood should be enough for a well rounded pet. Most people have crates at home these days or exercise pens, fold them up and let them walk over that.

But in all reality, a genetically solid dog, being taken out on a daily basis, walked around the neighborhood should be more than enough exposure for a regular pet dog. Thats generally all they get anyways.

A so now we are talking about pet dogs. Now I understand why you don't both to put the work in. Makes sense now thank you. 👌👌

You don't even realize how ridiculous you are being. It's laughable really.

since much of talk about genetics, i'm curious about the cloning. if let say dog was cloned, would that dog going to have absolutely identical temperament/traits as a donor dog?

If a I see a dog with certain potential and I see a person that does not know how to interact with the dog [ and this implies handling , teaching , decoying/helper etc ] I can reasonably predict that this dog will not reach it's x ,or y , or z potential.

Centurian, cheers - sums up what I was looking for.  I would add not too many have your experience to do so. 

GK Yes , not may can do this . Even if someone knows how to go about evaluating a dog as I have described , 'knowing how ' is not enough to accomplish the task successfully . . This ability comes with doing this many times , .. that is to say , with the experience of having done this with many dogs . Also try to understand this - I do not think overly highly of myself compared to others in this repsect because I had the privledge of being taught by very knowledgable people to do this and had the opportunity to gain the experience that allows me to operate on this level . I am indebted and grateful to other people in my life to have shared their knowledge with me .

Valk .. From what I understand about the 'cloning' , and mind you I personally have not verified these result ,but the results of people having cloned animals were say that the clones were not as promising as one would have liked. Theoretically , you would think that the clones would be identical to the originals . Why they would not be .. I don't know except the natural animals had their mothers and that enviorment fromthe moment of their natural birth but the cloned animals did not . So maybe the environment and the mothers at birth immediately played a role and that makes a difference between the natural born animals and those that were cloned .. who knows and I certainly do not know why the clones were disappointing compared to their former counterpart animals .

Socialization , I made sure that all my GS in the critical period of developomental period got exposureto all different races not only by sight but also through their scent . Scent is the most important aspect of a dog's make up . Each race has a different scent base protein /scent . So in socializing my dogs , I was interested in not only exposing my dog to people with different skin colors by sight, but also they had opportunity to make associations between different people / races by their different protein skin bases / scent make ups . Again to stress the poin tI made : To me socialization is more than a dog just seeing people ...

some of these comments here i find to be a little bit on the ridicules side;
yeah, there are alot of posters that have been in the breed for longer then i have been, and have "trained" aot more dogs then i have, but believe me, i have trained my share of dogs that i have learned a few things along the way. And I'll say this, you can take a dog with the best genetics the breed has to offer, and if that dog is not exposed to and trained in any number of experiences, genetics do not just take over for deficient exposure, and vice versa. And you do not need the assistance of a community to socialize and prepare a pup for life.
Yes, you need to start with sound genetics, and second, the breeder must be willing to do more then just take the money from any pup they breed. it is a breeders responsibility to prepare each and every pup they breed for life outside of its starting point, and be ready and welcoming for whatever life brings to that dog. if that pup comes upon something totally new to them, even with the best genetics, a young pup may proceed with caution, but it will proceed. I mean isn t that the main thing "training"is all about?
Geneticly sound pups are not born with the inherited knowledge of what lies around every turn . They are born with the willingness and eagerness to go see what is around that turn, and with a zest to do so.
A breeder must encourage that behavior right from the git go, promote boldness, and encourage discovery with every pup, regardless of where that puppy will be spending its life. IMO, the problem is there are alot of people breeding that won t bother to take the time to give these pups that extra advantage they need to be successful in their life. When I hear people say, oh my pup going through this "fear stage". Where does it say that dogs go through this stage. I havn t had dogs go through that time in their lives. Dogs should not have time to be fearful as puppies. Like i said, puppies should be happy, and eager to experience life and willing to check out the unknown. I really don t believe they are born with a fear factor. That is a learned behavior. If you start out with a fearful mother dog, you will naturally end up with puppies that will also be fearful. Apprehensive yes, Fearful, No. You don t want reckless, careless dogs either. You want dogs that are able to think before they act, or react. Thats the dog that knows the difference in a perceived threat, and an actual threat, a dog that can differentiate between an approaching child, or a person planning harm. And i do believe a well rounded dog can make that determination.
I have had , and do have active Police k9s out of my dogs, and i also have many doing various sports and many being just good old family dogs living happy productive lives, They say a child learns what it lives, I believe the same applies to puppies and dogs.(not in every case, and not every dog).
I made the mistake once and sold a pup to the totally wrong person. When I took that dog back, I cried for him. He was so neglected and abused it was shameful. Within the month, he was back to being the same dog I sent out as a pup, eager to take on life. I sent a video of him to my Police k9 friend who came next day with the trainer for the NYS Police k9 unit and that dog went from my house, to the training field that day.He graduated police acaddamy training and went on to be active successful Police k9.

Hi Kitkat, how ya doing ? Good points. Do you not think however that many breeders' concept (even the good ones, not the greeders) of the amount of work they do with their puppies pre-sale has changed a lot over the years ? It's not so long ago a buyer was lucky if the breeder they were purchasing from had started to habituate the litter to household sounds like washing machines & clattering pans and vacuums. Now they often sell them later (up to 10 weeks instead of 7 or 7.5); they do all that habituation and more; sometimes do organised temperament tests (rather than just relying on their own knowledge & experience) to confirm which dog goes to which owner, for which purpose; they start to take them out & about in the world a little by carrying them into stores and around children, or they make more of a point of kids & other visitors coming in to see them. One has to wonder how we ever still managed to have 'good', strong-nerved pups back in the day when the half of that wasn't done - or still today where less conscientious breeders do not bother so much.

And yet we still seem to be seeing a rise in the numbers of pups (all breeds, not necessarily GSDs so much) where buyers may have picked the shyest puppy, out of their own inexperience, and the little ones are proving more likely to be anxious, snappy, and otherwise problematic.

Too many people buying 'family' dogs that really have no business owning dogs they have insufficient time for ? Insisting on the wrong pups for them ? Too many breeders unaware of what you say about fearful mothers influencing pups, so breeding with poor stock ?