A question I can't answer - Page 5

Thanks Melba, will be very interested in these litters. Are any of them going to be repeat breedings?

But it's not just Service Dogs, it's also Search Dogs. They know and understand what that harness is and go into working mode. It's a ritual.

Just a side note here - that's why I always put a tracking harness on my dog when tracking. When I did CKC tracking, this was a given. I notice in my schutzhund club that the people aren't terribly big on harnesses. I've even seen some of them do protection with a flat collar!

To my way of thinking, the 'change of clothes' helps prepare the dog mentally for what it's about to do. My dogs respond to what they see ME wearing - jeans and t-shirt, they bounce around, hoping to go for a ride/walk with me, work clothes they just sigh and lie back down - so why shouldn't it be the same for them?

 

I have seen the tracking dog harness/working mode thing many times, and what happens with the service dogs is different. It's a lot more than slipping into working mode. It's knowingly taking on a huge responsibility for the welfare of a disabled person.

Sunsilver, it is Nero :)

JonRob, not a repeat.
We're keeping a few to raise /train... The dam has huge litters (11, 12, 10) a fabulous off switch, nice protection. While she doesn't live to please me, she is 85% all about my kiddos. I'm good with that lol

Melissa

It's good to see so many people recognize the importance of a character trait that, a dozen years ago did not seem so well understood or vied for.

I would like to point out that, unlike someone here mentioned, handler hardness is not necessarily in direct conflict with a dog's biddable character. A dog highly insensitive to handler correction can still be very attentively compliant.

"handler hardness is not necessarily in direct conflict with a dog's biddable character. A dog highly insensitive to handler correction can still be very attentively compliant."

That is an excellent point. The easiest way to see this is to watch a really tough, biddable Border Collie follow complicated herding commands. His response to an outraged roar about a mistake is something like, "Oops, never mind, try something else." No cringing, cowering, or freezing, just an intense focus on getting it right.

Biddable dogs are not necessarily soft or weak.

Great points the last few posts. I would think it is especially important for a guide/service dog to be very biddable, but at the same time be able to exercise "discretionary disobedience" to keep the handler safe. These dogs must be easily directed but also stubborn when a direction given could be unsafe, and not obey.

Also some very good discussion about the dog's willingness to work with/for the handler. I feel that dogs, especially while learning a task, must be rewarded by more than just praise to reinforce the task elements more quickly and solidly. After the task is learned, and the training of the task is being done, then a dog that gets pleasure out of a praise reward and is not just looking for that toy/food, is fun to have. Not that I would say deny toy/food rewards altogether because they are a great reinforcing method , but being able to mix it up is nice.

As for SD's it depends on your needs. Especially when it comes to Anxiety. They more the dog is into you, they more you run into complications once the dog starts maturing. It all goes down the leash.

I don't know what happened to my post from yesterday but I had written a post about size and that size matters.

You can absolutely have a strong dog that is biddable. A strong and tough dog can be sensitive and biddable to the handler but not anyone else. My male is a good example for that. He's a strong dog. If he didn't have that speck of bidability and sensitivity in him I would be in a world of trouble. Because he's gotten so strong that he's getting hard to handle for me. But he's way more compliant than his sister.

 

Handler hard dogs are a whole different story and it all depends on whether they are in it for you or not. We've got one here that is extremely hard but thankfully in it for her handler and we've got another one that is in it entirely for herself.

There is a huge component of biddability that is environment and training...a good foundation, the right foundation, shaping what the dog is giving you at a young age. Although genetic to a point, even the "most experienced" trainers would have a hard time discerning what is genetics and what is great training. Most rely on their bias and subjectivity towards the handler and the dog's pedigree in order to make their determinations, or just say whatever the customer/client/friend wants to hear.

"I would think it is especially important for a guide/service dog to be very biddable, but at the same time be able to exercise "discretionary disobedience" to keep the handler safe."

Which it is. This is a matter of judgment which a good service dog must have. One of the service dogs I trained suddenly blocked his distracted owner from stepping off a curb after being told to heel. The owner was seriously annoyed for about 2 seconds--until the car that ran the red light whizzed by him.

"I feel that dogs, especially while learning a task, must be rewarded by more than just praise to reinforce the task elements more quickly and solidly."

Food/toys are often essential for teaching basic commands like sit, down, heel, stay because they can be used to positively lure the dog into the desired position and keep the dog in a stay. But some dogs don't give a crap about balls/toys and aren't very interested in food. For some of these dogs, praise and the sense of being part of an important team are far more rewarding than toys or food. The trainer always has to learn about the dog and use the best rewards for the dog.

Nice quote from Donald MCaig's Nop's Hope about what it means for a biddable dog to do real-world important work (OK, he's talking about Border Collies which are probably space aliens but I have seen the same thing in some GSDs):

"People often wonder just what trainers give the sheepdog in exchange for its boundless willingness. Food treats and praise sit on the trainer’s shelf, untouched, unused. The sheepdog is shown its possibilities, he learns what life is like for a good dog and is invited to walk in a rational world whose farthest boundaries are defined by grace.

There are dog saints as there are human saints."