Training ERROR or just a good dog - Page 5

Many dogs will trot off with the sleeve as soon as it is slipped.
The vast majority of dogs displaying that behavior -  are not credible protectors.

Matters not a jot - which terminology is used to describe the drive the dog is or is not in, because the action of the dog - tops terminology.


For those of us who train on a regular basis - know that there are many GSD's out there - regularly in front off us, who want ONLY the sleeve/bite suit.
Many of these dogs even when agitated post slipping the equipment - are disinterested in the man over the equipment - no amount off training will make these dogs credible protectors. Sure you can try and piss the dog off enough to re focus on the man - rarely will that ever be ENOUGH to keep the dog in the fight.

This is genetic and is covered up or exposed by training - for the most part covered up.

To be clear - I am talking about the bigger picture and NOT about Duke's very young dog in the vid.

Equipment focus is a FACT, it has many causes and is never ever helped by training which overtly encourages it.

R
Gee
 

Does anyone have any video of a dog releasing from a bite by grabbing its AA. I have never heard of this why not use that in a fight or as a training method for hard to out dogs?

Someone mentioned the word "preference" when describing a civil dog. That's a very light weak word choice for a definition of a civil dog. Its not a preference its a understanding this is not a game and should you choose I will dominate your ass, Civil. A tad past diet coke vs coke. You cant train civil it is or it is not.

Gee, the action of a dog is not only based on its genetics, but based on its training, too.
You know it, because you train according to it, so why do you speak against it now?

The "bigger picture" ?

There are "civil" dogs ( I owned several ), but all them do have more or less prey drive, too.

In case you develop their prey drive, that´s what the dog will show later on first and foremost, in case you develop "civility", that´s what the dog will show.

In case you want a "street" dog, you may develop "civil" drive - in case you want a "sport" dog, you may develop "prey" drive.

Whatever you do it doesn´t change inborn genetics, but it does change the performance of the dog...

@Susie - there is training and training, you can't put in what is not there.
You are absolutely correct re training improving performance - up to a point.

A for instance - a dog who consistently focuses on equipment over the threat - training to overcome this will only paper over the cracks. (which is why I am saying - it's genetic)

Just to be clear - I am not saying a dog working in prey can't seriously engage a man who has slipped a sleeve, that would be ridiculous lol.
I am saying the opposite, a dog who engages the man over the equipment no matter what DRIVE they are in - cuts the mustard.

R
Gee

"Drive", "genetics", and "training" always matter - the final "performance" does not necessarily show the "real" genetics, but will show the kind of training the dog is used to.
A "civil" dog, trained in prey, will carry the prey, whereas a "civil" dog, trained civil, will bite civil.
The "performance" may be different, but not the genetics.
Both dogs are good dogs, because both of them are genetically "civil".

Sad to hear about the lack of training ability. Focusing on the equipment or the man is definitely training. Some dogs are more apt to go for the man, others are more apt to go for the equipment. Foundation from a young age greatly affects this but it’s not difficult to teach a dog to go for one or the other. Statements like “For those of us who train on a regular basis - know that there are many GSD's out there - regularly in front off us, who want ONLY the sleeve/bite suit. Many of these dogs even when agitated post slipping the equipment - are disinterested in the man over the equipment - no amount off training will make these dogs credible protectors” just show the lack of understanding when it comes to dog behavior and how to properly train a dog to do what you want.

Get past the type 1, type 2, type 37 dogs. Train a dog to do what you want it to do. Most pet/sport dogs are trained to target a sleeve for safety of the dog and helper and are also not considered protection dogs for most of their owners so the owners don’t need a dog that is obsessed with a man. During training, a dog that spits a sleeve and goes after a helper is annoying to work and will get less time on the field because each time the dog has to keep engaged with the helper until the owner comes over and leashes the dog. Waste of time and energy for those that aren’t ever going to sell their pets to the police department. I work plenty of sport dogs who are clear and target a sleeve but will just as quickly bite a hidden sleeve or whatever limb you decide to flinch while they’re “on.” Makes them civil I guess…yet most of you would cry “prey dog/training” about each and every one of them.

Okay, no kidding now...

I trained "civil" dogs to participate successfully in IPO, even carrying a sleeve,
and
I trained "prey" dogs to bite "civil", successfully sold to police as single purpose dogs.

The training wasn´t able to change the genetics...

@BW Stop talking and start showing us your own dog doing absolutely anything?
You have been asked that many times, is your training really that bad, that you can't share?

Do you even have a dog lol?
If so whats it's pedigree?

You pissed off quite a few IPO folk here in the UK last month with your disparaging comments.

Some of us actually train, and never feel the need to hide behind a cloak of anonymity.

Then there is Bavarian Wagon, a dog less fantasist.

Gee
 

You are not teaching the dog it's a "game" you are teaching them there are rules.

And unless they follow the rules they do not get what they want (Praise/approval from handler, relief from correction and or bite).

My use of the word preference was not a "definition" in that sense...I was merely conveying the point that a dog does NOT have to hate equipment to be considered civil. And with a civil sport dog who has been trained and understands the rules the word preference most definitely describes the relationship between equipment and man. They will bite equipment but prefer and show more stimulation when worked or bite civil. I have seen/handled and trained numerous civil sport dogs carry equipment because they were conditioned to but would spit it out with intense fervor with a quiet utterance of a bite command from his handler and immediately re-engage the "naked" decoy.