Clicker training - Page 5

The dog is working for food. Not for you, not because he has to listen, but for food on his own terms, and performance may relate to the desire of the reward, so if it's not something the dog is super motivated for or there's other distraction, you're gonna have a tough time. It's not going to work out as the sole method with most dogs and it's not going to solve certain behavior issues, and it may get your dog conditioned to perform certain tasks or compete in some obedience but it won't get a dog totally trained. To be a "trained" dog, to have that title, it must understand a correction. It doesn't have to get a lot of correction, but it has to understand what a correction means, accept a correction, and know how to avoid it in order to get reward.

This may be YOUR experience, but this certainly is not a "fact". 

Many animals are trained through very complex routines without ANY correction.  Think SeaWorld.  Think many,  many positive trained competition dogs.

For instance, when training my current AKC competition dog jumping, I would never dream of "correcting" her for going around the jump. There is no need. I can make her understand that that is not what I want without a "correction".  

A dog doesn NOT have to think it will be "corrected" for making an incorrect behavior. THis has been proven time and again.

Tina, you are very lucky to live near Shade. If you are serious about changing over to positive, I would suggest taking lessons from her. I do, and it is always an amazing experience each and every time.  Far too many people "dabble" in positive, what I call "click and kick", thinking they can throw a little clicker work in on a dog who has been trained that if he/she makes a wrong choice they will get their head yanked off. Or told NO! or some other "correction".  Positive is based on a WHOLE different outlook, and that is why I suggest working with Shade - she can help you see the Big Picture. 


 

 

 

Diane, I am working dogs with somebody else now and am no longer a member of CSC.   The clicker training/positive reinforcment is all part of what/how the dogs are worked now.   This is working well for me and the dogs and I am very happy with the results I've been getting.... 

not to start an argument.....but there are 4 quadrants of learning.   I 100% understand how the animals at seaworld are trained.  I know they do very complex behaviors.  BUT...in a show at sea world.......the trainers can use variable reinforcement DURING the show. Basically...shamu goes through the ring...he can get a fish...during the show.  A whale is also not a pack animal....although a mammal..  they may travel in pairs or 3 or so...but they are not a domesticated pack animal. So they will not understand any type of correction.  During a trial....you can not use food when fluffy hits the sit in motion. So for reliability....some sort or "pressure" needs to be used. Does not have to be beating the dog....but some sort of pressure. Just like us humans get pressured every day. Like when I got a speeding ticket the other day. 

I know that clicker training works as a operant conditioning, but I also think it is just a stupid gimmick perpetrated on innocent  by companies manufacturing and marketing  clickers. Instead of:"Click, click"  just  tell your dog :"Good Boy!" and you are safe if clicker manufacturer will get out of business and you need to praise your dog.
You see dog does not care what  stimulus you use. Your voice , whistle , clicker,.....bell. I would never base my dogs conditioning on a tool which may be at one point in the future hard to get hard to get or I may forget it at home. Presumably I will always have my voice.  
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

 As I stated earlier, I have been training for several decades. Adding clicker training has garnered some laughter from fellow trainers and some big eye opening moments with my clients.
 When I took part in one of Daves seminars a few years back, I had already been using clicker training.
But watching him and his application in his sport....it was simply...orgasmic! Am I allowed to say this here? LOL
And it showed me a whole other dimension about the application of clicker training. 
 It took "normal, basic" shaping and applied it to specific maneuvers in a venue that is not second nature to me. 


One more thing, 101 things to do with a box, is awesome. I applied it one rainy afternoon to 101 things to do with a crate with the criteria that I would not move of the couch and the crate was across the room. Pup had barely been introduced to the clicker and it was in the beginning of me learning about it. It was a total blast and a great learning experience since neither me or the dog had a clear idea but we sure did a little while later since we both had to think on our feet, improvise and put some serious thought into it. With all the quickly changing behavior it was awesome!

 Hans, years ago I was exposed to Susan Garret....(had not a clue who she was others than the fact that all the agility people thought that she was god so I was kind of put off right from the start....LOL - it have since revised this might I add). The trainer that had brought her to my facility and me used to have many discussions in which I used your words exactly.....
Now however I know better. What would the harm be to try? 

As I have said above it is a stupid gimmick. The only benefit is that trainer is forced to be consistent in
stimulus -> response-> revard  sequence . But it can be done as well with your voice saying "good boy" or anything else for that matter. Dog does not care!!!!
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

No there is no harm to try. However  I personally want to put between me and the dog as little equipment and gimmicks and complicated do hikers as possible,....even if they do not hurt anything.
I am kind of self reliant guy.
Prager Hans 

"For instance, when training my current AKC competition dog jumping, I would never dream of "correcting" her for going around the jump. There is no need. I can make her understand that that is not what I want without a "correction".

In training to understand what is wanted, I agree.  Totally.  But after that?  once the dog knows and has been proofed and thoroughly understands what it's to do, depending on the dog - oy.  (lol).  I have a lot of experience with hounds, and let me tell you, they WILL do what they please when they please no matter how much they love you and how fun training is.  You don't breed a creature for 500 years to think and act independently and then be surprised that it does.

"A dog doesn NOT have to think it will be "corrected" for making an incorrect behavior. THis has been proven time and again."

Ummmm, I respectfully disagree with this blanket statement.  There are indeed dogs that need to know if I go around the jump instead of over I will be corrected.

That being said, it is important to note WHY the dog is going around.  This is for all those jump-happy owners (I won't say "trainers") who make their dogs jump repeatedly.  Once fully trained and understanding what is wanted, going around the jump can mean the dog is saying, I'm tired, I'm sore, please don't make me do this over & over again, or a number of other things, and we need to be observant and "listen" to the dog with our eyes as well as our ears.

However, there are dogs that at times simply do not want to do what you want when you want it, either for food or lovin' or any other reward.

last post as i am leaving for europe shortly to give some seminars and coach my friend in the BSP.    OK, yes, you can use your voice...as some very talented friends of mine do.  BUT, your AVERAGE trainer..can just not say good boy or "yes" 10 times in a row with the same inflection in the voice.  As we know, the clicker is generally 100% consistent in its sound. It is also a sound that the dog in not flooded with every day...so forces them to pay more attention. Also, most people have diareah of the mouth..they over talk. And throw out the "good boys" like they are going out of style with no relevance.  Now, I am not saying I am opposed to using a word as a marker...but to say a clicker is a gimmick is well.....just ignorant.    later...........d