Czech Bloodlines. - Page 5

 Hans,
Would you post a picture of Fram Haio z Jirkova Dvora, please? Also, the PDB indicates that he is linebred 5,5 on Klara.  Based upon your earlier discussions of this bitch, do you have any concerns about hip production by Fram?  I am trying to learn more about Czech lines and appreciate your insights and discussions. Thanks!

 Klara has done nothing for any bloodline except screw it up and you couldn't give me another dog with Klara in it again, I learned my lesson

I guess that I should repeat what I was trying to say, first you have Klara in the pedigree which has signs of disaster to start, then you line breed on Klara. Yikes!!!

Although captivating it is a extravaganza with a whimsical inventiveness.

DO NOT BREED HIPS - BREED DOGS!

Looks like someone have read a book,.....Maybe  Alice in pop-up wonderland. :)
Yes Klara can be a problem, but it is irresponsible to say that   Klara has done nothing for any bloodline except screw it up .
Klara is in so many pedigrees because it added to the progeny hardness, courage, protection drive and territoriality. And her progeny was super in competitions and produced  super police workers.  
Proof is in the pudding and I am going to use 2  examples. "Haio" has Klara in his pedigree 3 x and according to my vet (Dr Garry Yocham) who is exceptional in interpreting Hip X rays,  "there is absolutely nothing wrong with his hips ."  I am expecting OFA good or maybe excellent.
Klara is in 5 and 6 generation there. Thus genetic power is not strong and in this case it is diminishing  (that is not always the truth though).   All the dogs on "Haio's" pedigree after her had good hips. Fram "Haio" has super hips and just about all dogs have for 5 generations have good hips ( Except Klara and 1 or 2 fast normals in 5th) if available.  Klara in the pups will then be in 6th and 7th generation. You have to look at the HD on the pedigree as a whole. Then I am breeding him  to Erin Derik. There is no Klara. There is line breeding in - 5 generations
•5 - 4............................................. in Jule von Lünsholz
•5 - 4............................................. in Bernd vom Riemsloherwald
•5 - 4............................................. in Cordon An-Sat
•4 - 3............................................. in Baro vom Kühlen Norden 1
All those dogs are strong hips improves And their LMX (litter mates x rayed some experts call it vertical pedigree) is also good. 
Also Haio has Titus z PS super hips improver.
Thus here I LOOK ON HIPS AS A TOTAL PICTURE AND NOT JUST  ON KLARA  as some total eliminating factor. 
 Haio is a super specimen as  a working dog. Tough, territorial, discriminative, super drive, easy learner, moves like a Arabian horse, affectionate, sensitive, protective, courageous, civil.HAS A GREAT HIPS . ....  Thus hell yes I'll breed Fram "Haio" that is since I breed dogs and not just hips. Breeding is a compromise. Always. And if you get stuck on hips or on anything singular then you will pay dearly in a long run.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/para.utkoma?fadir=669676&modir=562035
  Here is another example. Gero z Blatenskeho zamku   is 2-3 Klara z Pohranicni Straze. I have seen close line breeding on Gero some may call it inbreeding and hips were very good on just about all pups x rayed.  Go figure! As a matter of fact we are doing one with JINOPO right now. I will change my opinion based on facts. Klara is not an evil God, she is a dog which needs to be dealt with appropriatelly.  .
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
 

agree with you there hans , every dog has a dog in its pedigree that produced something bad , sometimes

ive seen several close linebreedings on grimm z ps with good hipresults as well , so breeding is more than maths alone

 Thank you, Hans, for an explanation of your rationale.  From your description, Haio sounds like a good dog.  I wish you the best with your breeding plans.

 I second that, thanks for the great post Hans. On the topic of hips, her is my girls linebreeding, both Grim and Klara, A LOT of Grim, and she just came back OFA Good. 

5,5 - 5........................................... in SG Ben z Bolfu
5 - 5............................................. in VELMI DOBRY Klara z Pohranicni straze
5,5 - 5........................................... in SG Tina z Pohraniční stráce CS
4 - 5............................................. in Majka z Blatenskeho Zamku
4,4 - 4........................................... in SG Grim z Pohranicni straze CS

Cheers. 

Very much agree with you Hans, its about the total dog. Breeding is a compromise and though there are dogs that I may not linebreed on because of faults that tend to follow them, I ALWAYS balance it with what do they bring to the table in other terms. And sometimes I need what they bring in the postive and I try to compensate with strength in their weak areas with the other dogs in the pedigree. JMO

Gustav :Yes!!!
One of the things I do
when I am looking on Klara for example is that I am always considering if she is getting weaker or not weaker. I always keep her in mind though . You can not eliminate all the dogs  because there is Klara in 7 th generation or so in their pedigree. That would with Klara eliminate 254 dogs (!!!!) which such dog would carry in his pedigree together with Klara. Or at least 127 dogs which she directly influences since they would be in her  direct progeny.  You know Klara got it somewhere too and that dog got it from another dog too. And so on and on and on . According to the theory like this you could not breed GSD at all because eventually it goes to the foundation dogs of the blood line and evetually to the wolf! Also further back Klara is more dogs will get affected. You then are fighting wind mills like Don Quixote.  
I also agree that if you totally eliminate Klara then you will eliminate certain problem, but the problem with that is that you will inevitably introduce another  one instead  of it, and you  you are now narrowing the  gene pool which is already a big problem due to fads in colors and so on. (As matter of fact that is a admited problem of people who are trying to eliminate Klara form their pedigrees. ) Yes you eliminate Klara and look really good to some purists, but really it is a detrimental approach to the breed as a whole. If you would try to eliminate all the dogs who have some hips issue then you would have to eliminate all the dogs all the way to the wolf. The proper approach is to compensate for problems during matind of sire and dam and then select the best individuals from the litter and run with them in future breedings. 
 LOOK all the dogs and even wolfs have propensity for HD. There is nothing you can do about that. What you can doand should do IMHO, is to put the HD cards on the bottom of the card deck  of the  Sire and of the Dam so that the top cards are having slim probability of having HD card on the top on both parent's decks. I have borrowed this example from Fred Lanting.
By the way I am selling HD book from Fred Lanting. That is the ultimate book on HD. This is not really shameless plug since  I am not making much on each book at all and it is more just pain to go to the post office and ship it. .   But I am highly recommending it to anybody who is interested in the HD issue.
http://www.alpinek9.com/Alpinek9-Items-for-Sale.html
Prager Hans

    

Excellent commentary!!!


Would love to see more post with people like these,  I learn alot more.



I learn nothing from the post that are ......saying you are a troll, no you are the the troll.

No I'm not your the troll.




Very good post......... explanation as to why breed one dog or another.