OVER THE TOP DRIVE DIMINISHING??? - Page 5

Deb, you are always welcome to come here and play dogs. I wish we could get there more often! We are out of town Sat but man, if you could come down Mon or Tue early afternoon we could have lunch and you could get Echo in to see my vet for Xrays. You have seen his work, he is very good and he he will Xray from head to toe for 120.00! John gets off at 4, we could play dogs a bit & you would be home by dark :)

The  problems with an inexperienced helper working a very young  dog, and an "experienced helper who gets it all wrong" working a very young dog are pretty much exactly  the same and neither should be allowed to work young dogs because both will wreck a young dog faster than you can say "oh shit".    

Thanks Posiedon.

Everyone had to start somewhere and whether or not they will admit it, I will bet most if not every last one of the top trainers has screwed up someone's dog be it their own or someone else's on their way to greatness.  Like you said, it's better to work with someone who is open and willing to do what he has to in order to help the dog than someone who thinks he/she knows everything and blames the dog or handler for the failure.  My dog is not a failure.  She is young and has an ignorant handler.  Couple this with an inexperienced trainer and we may take 3 steps back for every step forward but we will get there. 

I came on here with my question because I wanted opinions and suggestions of a constructive nature.  The snarky comments I can do without.  They serve no purpose.  Now, if someone else has anything helpful to say I'm all ears.

Thanks!
Deb 
 

Deb:  That is not a correct statement.   Inexperienced helpers have NO BUSINESS working young dogs unsupervised, and here is "why":   It is VERY easy to wreck young dogs, because they are  not equipped to handle very much pressure.   When a GOOD and EXPERIENCED helper works puppies and young dogs he never pushes them into defense.  When a GOOD and EXPERIENCED helper finally does move a dog into defense he is EXTREMELY careful to watch the dog so that if the dog begins to show  signs of insecurity the helper immediately moves back into prey moves so that the young dog is not broken, and always leaves the field confident (with a chase bite for example).  It's the club helpers job to build the dog not tear it down.  If at some point the helper feels the dog is not going to work, the dog cannot handle pressure,  it's his job to tell the inexperienced handler/owner, but NEVER run a club dog. 

One more thing.  I have seen no snarky comments on this thread.  Not everyone is going to have positive things to say about your dog,  some might choose their words more carefully and couch it more politely, and someone else much more bluntly, but the fact  is, not all dogs are going to do well in schutzhund, the fact that your dog is in avoidance  is something you need to have an experienced trainer/helper evaluate very carefully.  At this point, from the pictures and from what you have told us, barring health issues, it could very well be bad helper work, or just as easily a dog telling you she is not up for the task.  

oooh....oh....no....stop:-)

poor dog is being worked by individuals who are not experienced enough to know when things are going wrong....ooh...ahh...enough says the dog as he/she bolts back to the car:-)

ron

The fact that my first two dogs EVER got their titles is still a mystery to me. By the time I found Dean, general consenses was that none of us would ever get anywhere on the trial field. Getting a miserable 252 on the first dog from my own first breeding was like winning the WUSV!

S

Sue, I think Deb meant with snarky comments the ones that just criticise but dont offer any other valuable input. Phil and GetARD, I am disappointed. We all agree that there is alot wrong, but dont you have anything constructive to say to help that situation?

Deb, that Echo fired back while on the pillow says that she wasnt ready for the sleeve. This is a plain confidence issue aka she feels more comfortable going after a smaller target. She can have a full bite with the sleeve, but headwise she is not ready for it as it presents a much bigger target. You say you worked her 15 min.....was that all on the pillow. If so, that is still too long. The seession shoud be just merly half of that time, fast, with not much talking between you guys. If you have questions talk to your helper before you bring the dog out, or have him clarifying things afterwards. It should be down to "carry back to me or choke her off" (so now please, nobody stumble over the word choke, ok) You probably will be doing this for a while, then move up to a young dog bite wedge. I would leave the whip out completely, no reason to use that at all. Maybe a stick for attraction when starting out, but then your helper should have both hands on the pillow to keep it presenting correctly. Is Echo carrying the pillow? If not, put a leash on the middle handle so your helper can keep it "alive" while carrying. Dont socialize her before or after the sessions. You too need to be in the right mind set, dont see your helper as friend, but see him as an agressor at this point.

Sue,
I was talking about the snarky comments about the trainer not my dog.  And it's not like he just fell out of the sky and started training.  He's been doing this for a while and trained his own bitch to a SchH III and she is a soft dog that some said would never make it.  The pictures I posted were of him trying different methods and do not depict his normal training.  I'm not ready to kick him to the curb just yet because he is willing to take suggestions and work with me rather than bull up and tell me it's my dog...I know it is a combination of all three of us.  A dog will not be any better than the helper/handler.  

Taking into consideration Echo's pedigree she just might not have what it takes and I may have to face the fact that she'll do better at AKC OB, agility, or whatever.  She's a hell of a dog and I think she has the ability to do Schutzhund. If anyone saw her work on the pillow last night they would think so too.  But, the bottom line is, I bought her for a pet/companion first and foremost and it just may be that is all she turns out to be and you know what?  That is fine with me.  I didn't buy an expensive import.  I bought a pet who just happens to have crazy drive and intelligence. 

I do appreciate your input and everyone else's as well.  I'm digesting it and talking with my trainer about it and we take it very serious what you all have told me.  We (my dog, my trainer & I) will come out on the other side of this stronger, wiser and the better for it. 

Cheers!
Deb

"If anyone saw her work on the pillow last night they would think so too."

Sorry to hijack your thread but you just reminded me that Axel worked on a down comforter last night...feathers everywhere!