Inbreeding - Page 5

I saw a lot of emotion based comments posted as well as some objective posts regarding this subject.  If one looks at the history of the breed, or rather, the foundation of the breed, it was founded on close line breeding to set  type (some did mention this). 

It goes both way and it is based on genetics and probability.  If you breed two dogs who are genetically related and the genetics are GOOD, then the probability of a genetically good dog is increased.  But the breeder must acknoweledge and be willing to face that if the line is BAD, meaning that even though the particular two dogs you are breeding appear good, it is the genetics they are carrying that may be faulty.

So, if you breed two related dogs in a line breeding and each dog carries for an undesirable trait, instead of only a %25 chance of passing it on, it increases exponentionally. 

By outcrossing, you increase the liklihood of not combining two bad genes......maybe......

However, with outcrossing, and dishonest breeders or unknoweledgeable breeders, you stand the risk of breeding to a dog that youTHINK is good and outwardly looks good, yet carries bad genes.

There ARE problems on both sides of the fence and whoever posted above about loosing something in the breed was correct.  The open-minded breeders who see this and set out to change this regardless of the line, are who I want to get to know.  Am lines?  Health, health, health, soft temperament, poor pigment in coats and eyes, and over angualtion is what I see and acknowelede on this side of the fence.  I believe there would be great improvement to the American lines if there were some kind of requirement (or enough consciencious breeders) to test for Temperament BEFORE breeding...it doesn't have to be Sch...but something equivilent such as the TT administered by the American Temperament Society.  I think the Am-bred should pass some kind of obedience test in addition to the temperament test...BEFORE breeding.  It does not have to be a CD or other...it could be the basic Canine Good Citizen.  Remember I am talking about (realistic) little things that I think would be great improvement to the American lines and you can't move a mountain overnight.  I love the European way of passing the tests they do before being approved worthy of breeding and I wouldn't change a thing tere. 

Problems in European lines? Overangulation going the opposite way, and high drive to the extreme, as in to the point where the dog can't be left alone without being destructive.   Plus, it bothers me that I am hearing more and more from buyers who say they have been jilted by Euro line breeders in the health department, where this used to not be a problem that often came up in the past. 

It goes back to breeding for the total dog.  Yes, it needs the drive to be able to work tirelessly, but not so much drive that it can not adapt to being the loyal, loving babysitter and sit still and be content with being still.  When I lived in Germany, most of the shepherds there (that I personally had interaction with) had working jobs which is what they needed, which suited the lifestyle over there.  Over there volksmarching, hiking, touring, vineyards, etc. are common (or were).  Do I recommend Euro lines for the typical family in America? NO, not typically.  Why?  Because MOST American families can't handle a high drive dog, the dog can't cope with less than a high drive job, the dog ends up becoming destructive, then the dog ends up in the shelter or at a breed rescue.  However, if during my long "interrogation" of prospective buyers, (which it ends up being because most of them wait and I talk to them over several months) and they are young, competitive, athletic, ambitious, etc. and they want a dog for more than an average li

Palestar, you mentioned that more and more people are getting stuck with German line dogs with health issues.  IMO this is because "German lines" are a huge selling point right now so a lot of idiots who are in it for the money are breeding dogs without doing the proper testing before hand.  Even here on this board, how many ads do we see for "Top German lines" yet the first 1, 2, or even three generations are not titled, some not even OFA'd.  What good is the German system (which made the German lines what they are today) if it isnt used? 

There are of course good and bad breeders in all lines.  And no matter what we do, genetics throw us for a loop and German line dogs are not perfect either.   Unfortunately "German lines" in this country are feeling the effect of money and idiot people who are trying to make money with them.  Not to mention, how many have heard about someones "German line dog" only to find that the dog isnt even German lines!  Someone used that term to SELL THE DOG.  Just the other day on an email list a young girl kept referring to her "German working line dog", in looking at the dog I had serious doubts he was of working lines and asked what his pedigree was.  She didnt have a pedigree for him.  He wasnt as angulated as her Am show line dog and the "breeder" said he was German working lines even though his parents had obviously American sounding names.  So now she is talking on more then one email list about her "German working line dog" and if this dog has any problems the "German working lines" will be blamed even though he is not.  I have found this is rather common.

As for linebreeding/inbreeding.  I know it is not uncommon in the Am line circle to inbreed.  I do not feel it is necessary to produce good dogs, however I do like a good linebreeding sometimes.  If someone is going to linebreed or inbreed IMO they should at least make sure the parents/dogs are well tested and proven to be breed worthy before doing such a breeding.  I feel that should be the case for ALL breedings though.  It is one thing to tightly inbreed on dogs who are titled, proven, seriously tested, OFA'd, other health testing etc... yet another to inbreed on dogs who are young, not OFA'd, not titled, not even tested beyond the show ring or their "house temperament". 

Then again, it comes down to preference and what the breeder is trying to accomplish.  If they are trying to set type for a dog who will excel in the show ring and the breeder is not interested in working their dogs... then they wouldnt much care if the dog lacks breed worthiness in other areas.  That is easy breeding :)  IMO it gets much more difficult when you are breeding for a TOTAL all around dog. 

When I talk to people who want a GSD, I either recommend a German line dog OR recommend a different breed.  IF the person who suitable to own a GSD, they will not have a problem with a good sound German line dog.  I have placed several working line puppies into pet only homes, some even with first time owners.  Every one of those pups I have no doubt could have went to various types of working homes, so they were not "duds".  They were however sound in nerves and temperaments, the owners understood the need to socialize/train/exercise the dog and keeps them stimulated.  THAT is (or at least should be) true of ANY GSD.  NO GSD should be a couch potatoe, lay around the house with no desire to work!  IF someone wants a dog like that, they need another breed (or no dog at all).  I will never ever agree with watering down the breed in order to make animals that the average lazy American family can keep in the house with no training/effort. 

I do agree it wou

Hmmm, it cut my post off.  Guess I got too long winded LOL  I was just going to say that I agree it would be good if the dogs were required to have some sort of test before breeding but it will never happen. 

I am glad someone other than me got "cut-off" by some mysterious word limit! 

after reading the replys to gerald's posts,i was glad to see someone replied who knows what inbreeding&linebreeding is useful for when it comes to establishing a breeding program,yes it sets the qualities& type in ones genepool,where there is more of a consistency of the traits you as a breeder are looking for,instead of ten puppies who are totally different from one another,you get to see what the strengths,and weaknesses are,and you as the breeder then make "wise choices" as to where you go from there.as a breeder of both am.gsd's,and also import strong working lines ,the two never combined of course for they are two totally different gsd's,and after spending 20 yrs. sucessfully breeding some of the top show&obedience dobermans in the country, this is the only way for one to work on any health&genetic issues in their lines,for otherwise they would just pop up randomly,for they are in the european lines&am.lines both!!and yes gerald roach is a member of G.S.D.A.,and therefore abides by its code of ethics,i have seen his dogs for the past 5 yrs.,while i have been competing in conformation,and they appear to have wonderful temperments,and he has been a successful competitor,and have never heard anything bad as far as his puppies he has sold,and believe me words gets around just as fast about that in the world of show dogs as it does in the working dog circles.i think ,gerald was referring the knowledge that a breeder has acquired over the yrs. vs. the knowledge a pet-buyer would have,not that a knowlegable dog person who does not breed,would persay have any less acquired knowledge..and no breeding dogs is certainly not comparable to humans,it is an art&science,that should be left for the individual,who is willing to commit to it,and yes it is a personal opinion. 

Then how do you account for the symmetry in conformation & work in the German lines which are more often than not, open and when line bred, never closer than 2,2? 

Palestar and GSD2727, absolutely great posts.